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Moved from Vfd Edit

Nothing links to this, and it is a much less robust version of Assignment patch. Aholland 02:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. There are pages that do link to it and I believe the article could be expanded to remove the similarities between it and assignment patch. -- SmokeDetector47( TALK ) 03:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. The article should probably explain the difference between the Starfleet insignia and an assignment patch -- one is the symbol for all of Starfleet, the other is a symbol for one group of personnel.
  • also, its fully possible to check Special:Whatlinkshere/Starfleet_insignia to see that one would be misrepresenting the situation saying "nothing links to it", so I'm not sure where you are going with that angle. Lack of links is not a valid grounds for deletion, neither is claiming so when it isn't true.-- Captain M.K.B. 04:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Umm . . . Wow. I swear when I saw the article last night it was an orphan, with a big blank in the "What links here" page. It was also a much less robust article. I have no clue what I was looking at then. Please ignore the request; Starfleet insignia is a valid and comprehensive article and should be kept, without question. Aholland 17:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Origin of arrowheadEdit

Can someone explain to me the real-life origin and design of the Starfleet insignia (arrowhead shape)? The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.157.90.32 (talk).

Well, according to "Star Trek Sticker Book," it was designed in 1964 by William Ware Theiss when he designed the uniforms for TOS. It was aparently smaller in the first pilot, and bigger in the second-onwards. Mike Okuda's description of it in the same book is:
"A dramatic free-form arrowhead pointing symbolically upward to the heavens." (pg. 1)
And it goes on to say how in honor of the TOS Enterprise's famousness, Starfleet adopted it. - AJ Halliwell 08:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I seem to recall reading somewhere long ago (circa 1970) that the arrowhead emblem was also influenced by some of the older starchart representations of the constellation Aquila, the Eagle. Can anyone else recall that bit of trivia?173.185.148.218 17:35, August 26, 2014 (UTC)

According to the roleplaying game by FASA, and the next generation supplements, the arrowhead insignia also served as a symbol of warp technology which allowed the federation to come into being. The outer wall of the arrowhead is the power-thrust ratio of traditional rocket boosters to achieve faster-than-light travel, where the threshold barrier is almost all the way at the top of the arc; it shows a high burst of energy was needed to achieve the acceleration, and then immediately fell off.
The bottom of the arrowhead is the power-thrust ratio of warp technology, where a significantly less amount of energy was needed to achieve the same thrust, and required a lower threshold barrier. Further, the energy arc stays over the barrier much longer than conventional thruster technology. The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.61.161.233 (talk).

Edit

I'm curious as to why the Russian Federal Space Agency, in 1992, chose a variant of the Starfleet Insignia for their space program? Dsmith2

Is it really supposed to be the Starfleet insignia? People have made the same claims for the US Space Command, but with no evidence. Personally, I think it is supposed to be an arrow pointing to the heavens, with nothing to do with Trek. --OuroborosCobra talk 15:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
No, I would not write it off that easily. The similarity between the Star Trek: TNG Starfleet Insignia and the Russian Federal Space Agency of 1992-present is just too striking to be coincidental. Afterall TNG was in wrapping up its 5th season in '92 broadcast syndically worldwide. The design is hardly original and appears to be a close reproduction of the Star Trek TNG insignia. I'm suprised that VIACOM hasn't sued or attempted to sue the Russian government over trademark infringement, knowing how greedy and malevolent VIACOM is when it comes to protecting its cash-cow Star Trek franchise.

Perhaps the new Russian government at the time didn't have the budget or creativity to come up with their own logo so as a quick fix they took the universally familiar Star Trek, Starfleet Insignia. Or it may have been to pay homage to Star Trek and the late Gene Roddenberry.

In either case, the MA site needs an official reason for what influenced the New-RKA to come up with this logo. And when you have something aboveboard, and not mere speculative musings of some n00b like me, the main "Starfleet Insignia" article should be updated with the new information and the picture of the new-RKA Insignia, explaining the eerie similarities. Dsmith2

The round thing could represent any number of things, like, I don't know, THE EARTH. Seriously, we have no basis for saying this is from Trek, and VIACOM (or whoever owns the copyright now) would have a hell of a time trying to make a lawsuit. I suggest you read the previous discussion on the Space Command insignia, where we decided not to even mention it unless we had some proof. --OuroborosCobra talk 01:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
As I said, just now: I can't seem to find any origin for this logo on a quick search. Speculation should most certainly be left out of this article, but it is very similar to the TNG logo (pay attention to the circle!). You seem to know more about this logo than I (having never seen it before), perhaps you can find out where they "stole" their idea from (a link would be nice), and post it here. Then you wouldn't be such a "n00b" (I jest).--Tim Thomason 01:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The circle thing could easily also just represent an orbit. Think about it, elliptical, and something the Russian Space Agency does a lot of... --OuroborosCobra talk 01:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
You contributors here never cease to amaze me. I can't believe I actually got such a swift response to any wiki or forum post in my life, nor have I received one so heated and ill tempered as this one. As soon as this n00b gets more information from the Russian Federal Space Agency, perhaps a real correspondence from one of their PR liasons or something, their consulate in my area, or maybe even NASA, I will gladly fill everyone in on all the gory details. In the mean time here is a a little IQ test for everyone. Which two out of three images below bear most resemblance to each other? Have fun - Good luck! Dsmith2
Starfleet Command signage logo, 2360s

Starfleet Operations Insignia circa 2364

<<File:RKA_Logo.png|left|thumb|125px|Russian Federal Space Agency circa 1992-Present>>

<<File:USSC.jpg|left|thumb|125px|US Space Command Assignment Patch>>

First off, I don't think anyones responses have been ill-tempered. I've stated the policy that we basically made the last time something like this came up, which is that without proof, we are not going to include it. So far, the closest to ill tempered I have seen is you calling yourself a "n00b". No one else is using name calling or anything of the like. I'm sorry if you cannot accept that we want proof before including something, but that is that. --OuroborosCobra talk 02:19, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
First off for the record Mr. OuroborosCobra, I think you are being a bit overbearing and an intolerant prick. Why don't you fudge off and leave me alone. If you don't like what I have contributed here to the discussion, why don't you delete this whole goddamm RKA thing I started, since I wasn't the first to ever mention it. I didn't think I was because some things are just too obvious, but given your crappy WikiShitti structure that you have here, things are hard to find. If you don't like me, if you don't like the I don't play by your very authoritarian rules then why don't you put your horned Klingon boot in my ass and send me to Grethor where dishonorable Hew-mon scum like me belong, got it? dsmith2 21 FEB 2007 22:59 EDT (Up yours globalist UTC scum.)
Just thought I'd point out: this has actually been brought up (though as a minor point) before at Talk:NASA. Also, based on a basic translation of the RosCosmos Official website [1] / [2], use of the logo is only with their permission, and for information, call +7 (095) 975-44-58.  :-) Anyone interested in calling and asking "Did you base your logo off of Star Trek?" Gotta say, I'm tempted to do so myself... - AJ Halliwell 03:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
BTW, I've replaced the Starfleet_Logo.jpg image used, as it is being proposed for deletion. As for the RKA image, it was copied from Wikipedia (according to User talk:Dsmith2), and the image on Wikipedia (here) isn't well-sourced, but claims to be made by the user, and was documented under the GNUFDL, so I think it shouldn't be here either.--Tim Thomason 03:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
To bring an end to a long-winded debate about a file that probably shouldn't be on here anyway, why not just add a note similar to the one about the US Space Command logo. It begins with "in a form of fact emulating fiction". A similar note about this Russian logo can be added which notes the striking similarity, but, if anything, implies that it's only a coincidence. --Pearse 15:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no such note about the Space Command logo. We removed it long ago. --OuroborosCobra talk 16:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
But it's right here in the background section of the article: "In a form of fact emulating fiction (and vice-versa), the US Space Command badges have a delta arrowhead very similar to the 1960s-designed Enterprise insignia, while the Earth Starfleet SF insignia seems to be a deliberate synthesis between the TOS era pennant and the NASA logo." A note about the RKA logo could be written in a similar manner, pointing out that there's a similarity, but not necessarily a derivation.--Pearse 16:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Touché. --Alan del Beccio 04:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking of the United States armed forces article, where it was removed. Probably should be removed here as well, for the same reasons it was in the other one. I would also add that our note (an our image) seems to be in error, as this seems to be the shield for the Air Force Space Command, not the US Space Command. --OuroborosCobra talk 04:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Hey, i wanted to take a chance to be an intolerant prick: could everyone take their images and shove them where the sun doesn't shine? thanks in advance. love, Captain M.K.B.

Removed Edit

According to the in the context of warp drive,
The starfleet delta represents the energy layers of the Cochrane. Put together they form the energy requirements for warp drive vs. the energy required to maintain the warp field is the distortion of the warp field. Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual (pages 54, 55)

If anyone can verify this, and reword it to make sense, it can be put back into the bg section. - Archduk3:talk 17:10, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

Category Edit

I'm wondering what the rationale is for categorizing this article under "Agencies" and "Earth agencies". While Starfleet is an agency, the Starfleet insignia itself is not an agency, it is the symbol of an agency.--31dot 14:40, June 26, 2011 (UTC)

But it also needs a category other than clothing accessories. It's not just a cloth/metal thing, it's also a symbol. (See MA:CS) --LauraCC (talk) 16:19, September 9, 2016 (UTC)

Arrowhead: TOS Enterprise insignia or Fleet Division insignia? Edit

Hello. Great job to all involved in this massive wiki. Incredible resource. I do have thoughts regarding the arrowhead insignia:

We know that other starships used other assignment badges--however: Should it not be acknowledged that (during the TOS era) Enterprise personnel were NOT the only Starfleet personnel to wear the arrowhead? There were several times in TOS in which we saw members of Starfleet, who were not from the Enterprise, wearing the arrowhead--including, most notably, in the bar scene of "Court Marshal" (Kirk is confronted by disgruntled personnel from another starship wearing the arrowhead) and possibly "The Cage" (the fantasy scenario in which Pike as a member of the Orion Syndicate hosts a Starfleet officer--not necessarily from the Enterprise--also wearing the arrowhead). Granted, "The Cage" example is a weaker example in that it is both a fantasy and not specifically verified as to which ship (if any) the fantasy officer originates. Although, one "senses" from the context that the officer is not specifically from the "heroic" Enterprise, but is just a (somewhat sleazy) member of Starfleet in general. However, the Starbase 11 bar scene in "Court Marshal" is a much stronger example, in which Captain Kirk enters a bar filled with personnel from various ships (presumably including the Enterprise), all of whom are wearing the arrowhead--but Kirk is confronted by an officer (with his buddies in the background) who, given their conversation, is clearly NOT part of Kirk's crew. They know each other from previous assignments, but it's pretty clear that he isn't from the Enterprise--yet he and his crewmates wear the insignia. An even "stronger" example comes from an admittedly weaker source--that being The Animated Series. The episode, "The Eye of the Beholder," clearly shows the crew of the USS Ariel wearing the arrowhead. And while, many will argue the canonicity of TAS, it seems CBS is granting a little more credence to it in recent years, as is Memory Alpha. So, it seems an acknowledgment is not uncalled for.

Forgive me, I wish I could cite the specific source (perhaps someone could help me)--but, years ago, I read in a credible source (it might have been "The Making of Star Trek" or one of Shatner's interview books or maybe even one of the Okudas books--I've pretty well read all of these "making of" books going back to the 1970s)--but regardless, I remember quite distinctly the content of the information which revealed that the separate insignias for separate starships became a thing by accident. Basically, what happened was that a costumer didn't get the memo that the arrowhead (as we saw in "Court Marshal") was indeed intended to be the official Starfleet insignia for all vessels (with the exception of Starbase personnel, including Starbase 11 personnel in that same episode, who wore the round starburst badge). What happened was a later costumer, perhaps unfamiliar with "Court Marshal," based the idea on the fact that members of the Antares crew in the earlier episode, "Charlie X," wore different badges than Enterprise--not realizing that Antares was a small "merchant marine" vessel and not part of the main military branch of Starfleet. Thus, a costuming mistake in later episodes (i.e. "The Doomsday Machine," "Omega Glory," etc.) accidentally retcons that each ship has its own badge--only for this to be retconed again in TAS and most especially in the movies.

Furthermore, while tentatively apocryphal, a number of novels, particularly the ENT relaunch, suggest that the arrowhead badge was not the Enterprise badge, per se, but was the badge of the Enterprise's overall fleet division--with other fleet divisions having their own badge, thus rectifying the discrepancy. Specifically, (and this wiki page correctly notes) the arrowhead represented the EUSPA division (going all the way back to the canonical "Friendship 1" from VOY) with the elongated, NASA-like Earth Starfleet logo of ENT being another variation thereof, as well as the similar, more erect arrow-ish Starfleet emblem seen throughout TOS displayed on walls and starships themselves, being yet another variation of the same symbol), with Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites each having their own Starfleet division logos on their own ship fleets--which eventually filter down to become the various fleet divisions of Starfleet in TOS.

While that isn't strictly canonical, there are enough canonical examples (the aforementioned TOS examples, the quasi-canonical TAS--and the very canonical movies and TNG-era arrowheads, which all but retcon the other starship emblems out of existence) to support that theory--which I think is a better theory than just the idea that Kirk was so freakin' awesome that Starfleet had to adopt his logo. Yes, he was awesome, but that's pretty ridiculous. A more reasonable idea is that Starfleet simply standardized an emblem which had already been around long before the NCC-1701.

We haven't seen it yet, but I will be surprised if the crew of the USS Discovery wears any logo other than the arrowhead--unless they *are* specifically a Section 31 crew as some have speculated. Whatever the case, we'll see. But I have been watching Star Trek almost since its incarnation, and I have never bought the idea that the arrowhead was exclusive to the Enterprise.

I really think this wiki page should include at least a boxed acknowledgement that these discrepancies exist and it is, therefore, not entirely *clear* that the arrowhead was exclusive to the Enterprise, even during the TOS era--that the other emblems seen *may* have represented other fleet divisions, rather than just other ships.

Thank you Moonjumper (talk) 21:49, September 12, 2016 (UTC) Moonjumper

If you could be a bit more concise in the future, it would be appreciated. That said, we can certainly have background information about how the use of the insignia developed in this article, but we would need the sources that the information comes from. 31dot (talk) 22:28, September 12, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, I admit I can be a bit verbose--which is why I wanted to open this as a discussion first--rather than try to add the edit myself. I had mentioned that I don't recall the source of the "behind the scenes" information I discussed, however, might I suggest a boxed acknowledgment something to the effect of...?

(feel free to edit more concisely) Note: There are scenes from TOS episodes "The Cage"/"The Menagerie" and "Court Marshal," the TAS episode "The Eye of the Beholder," the VOY episode, "Friendship One," as well as the USS Kelvin and USS Franklin uniforms seen in Star Trek and Star Trek Beyond, respectively, all which seem to suggest that the arrowhead insignia associated with the Enterprise during TOS may not have been exclusive to the Enterprise during the TOS era. Although we generally saw personnel from other starships wearing insignias different than that of the Enterprise, it is possible that those vessels were simply part of a different fleet division than the Enterprise--rather than the arrowhead being exclusive to the Enterprise.

--with the episodes/movies themselves being the source. Thoughts? Moonjumper (talk) 22:51, September 12, 2016 (UTC)

As an encyclopedia, we don't generally use what we see in the episodes to draw our own conclusions or speculate("it is possible")- which is why I said that we would need the sources to support any passage relating to how the use of the insignia evolved. Hopefully this discussion will jog another user's memory. 31dot (talk) 23:37, September 12, 2016 (UTC)

Hmm...okay, I just reread the passage, "By the early 2270s, while installations and starships, such as Epsilon IX station, maintained their individual assignment patches, Starfleet Command had adopted a new Starfleet insignia, a symbol previously used as the assignment patch of the USS Enterprise," but then I see that it does go on to acknowledge, "and prior to that, the USS Kelvin and USS Franklin."

I guess it's been so browbeat into us over the years (call it fanon) that Starfleet choose to adopt the arrowhead universally (I'm paraphrasing) only because Kirk was so awesome (which is ridiculous), I admit I kind of missed the second part of that sentence which does acknowledge that other vessels did utilize the same assignment badge prior to Enterprise. So, yes, that's accurate--and I admit now that I misread it. But what still bothers me about the article--maybe it just needs to be clarified--is that there is still this sense that what we saw on screen--in canon--in the bar scene from "Court Marshal," the Orion scene in "The Cage" and later the USS Ariel personnel in TAS somehow doesn't count at all. It still almost reads as though what we know of TOS in the "Prime Universe" (prior to JJ) indicates that the Enterprise was the *sole* bearer of the arrowhead prior to TMP--when that's clearly not the case. We do know that personnel from other ships in TOS and TAS wore the arrowhead. It's not speculation. And I don't know of any better source than what we see on screen--which is the *only* source that's supposed to be officially canon.

Is there way the article can be better clarified regarding the arrowhead? ::Moonjumper (talk) 00:57, September 13, 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I see one thing that's throwing me off: It says "Starfleet Command had adopted a *new* Starfleet insignia"--which is then contradicted in the same sentence, "a symbol previously used..." I guess part of my whole point is that the arrowhead wasn't new. It seems evident, on screen, that the arrowhead was an important bit of symbolism in Starfleet (beyond just the Enterprise) and that by TMP, it was in the process of being adopted universally as *the* symbol of Starfleet. Moonjumper (talk) 01:10, September 13, 2016 (UTC)

Ah-hah!!! This very wiki has a photo that essentially proves that Enterprise personnel were not the only TOS era Starfleet personnel to sport the arrowhead insignia. Even if you believe that *everyone* in the entire bar at Starbase 11 was from the Enterprise--including "Mike" who confronts Kirk in a blatantly insubordinate manner if he were part his crew (and the conversation indicates otherwise), type in "Starbase 11 personnel" into the search box, then scroll down to "2.15 Mendez' secretary." There you see a young Starfleet lieutenant at a computer station, serving as Commodore Mendez' secretary--clearly wearing a Starfleet arrowhead insignia and clearly not a member of the Enterprise crew.

Here's how I think the article should read:

Under History: "The United Earth Starfleet of the 22nd century used an elongated, forward-facing delta shape, with a round backdrop, that seemed to be based on symbols used by NASA..." (Replace the word "pointer" in quotes with delta, because it is an elongated version of the delta shape (more of an arrowhead shape) later used in TOS et al.

Then, later, the article can go on to say, "Shortly after the founding of the United Federation of Planets in 2161, a solid silver *arrowhead*-like symbol was worn by the crew of the USS Franklin, similar to the emblem used by early EUSPA vessels such as the Friendship 1. (Star Trek Beyond, VOY "Friendship One")" Specify the word "arrowhead" instead of just "delta"--because both shapes, ENT era and STB/TOS, are both variations of a delta shape--and you can *specify* the USS Franklin, as it's not yet "proven" to be the symbol of Starfleet in general (even though we can infer that it probably was). Then it can say, "By 2233, a similar arrowhead symbol was worn by the crew of the USS Kelvin. (Star Trek)."

But then it should go on to say (and this is what is completely missing), "By the 2260's, other Starfleet personnel, including crews of the USS Enterprise, the USS Ariel, and various personnel at Starbase 11, also wore the arrowhead insignia. (TOS "Court Martial," TAS "The Eye of the Beholder"). However, crew serving aboard other Starfleet vessels such as the USS Constellation and USS Exeter wore radically different insignias on their uniforms, indicating that the arrowhead emblem was not universally worn by all Starfleet personnel. (TOS "The Doomsday Machine," "The Omega Glory"). And later, "By the 2280's, Starfleet had adopted the arrowhead insignia universally." (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan)...etc.

So, in other words, you can very specific regarding when and where we have seen the arrowhead and where we haven't--without seeming to imply that it was solely unique to the Enterprise prior to TMP. Because it clearly wasn't.

And I can (almost) guarantee that Star Trek: Discovery will further seal that. We'll see.

Thoughts? I'd make some of the edits myself, but I would like to know what some of you think. Moonjumper (talk) 03:38, September 13, 2016 (UTC)

You seem to not be aware of the assignment patch page, which deals with the different assingment patches. This page only deals with the insignia used for Starfleet as a whole. - Archduk3 08:38, September 13, 2016 (UTC)

Ah, you are right, I did miss that. Thank you. However, whether the delta/arrowhead insignia, is appearing as an "assignment patch" on somebody's uniform or not, it is still adopted as the universal Starfleet insignia no later than TWOK--which is, as you say, exactly what the page is about. If there is a question as to if/when/where that occurred--or contradictions unto--then that seems appropriate material to address on a page dedicated to that insignia. How do we know it's Starfleet's insignia? A pretty good clue--obviously--is that we see it on everybody's uniform (except in the instances in TOS where we don't--contradicting other instances in the same show in which we do). Obviously the two pages are going to be related. Both pages need to be equally clear. The "insignia" page is confusing.

Furthermore, the "assignment patch" page is talking about patches ranging from NASA and other agencies to also including Starfleet. This page is specific to the Starfleet insignia, so it seems logical that any discrepancies related to that insignia should be addressed on this page, whether it's a "patch," a flag, or a seal mounted on the wall. Am I wrong? Moonjumper (talk) 10:05, September 13, 2016 (UTC)

First, retain your indent, it makes this easier to follow.
Second, you are wrong. This page only deals with the "delta" after it's used for all of Starfleet. It, of course, briefly covers where the insignia came from/was used before that, but any in depth information on that should be at assignment patch, becuase that was what it was at the time.
Third, it's important to note that MA is not for personal speculation or original research. MA tries to not make assumptions, or at least not make assumptions not supported by background information, like production sources stating that the intent of the patches in TOS was that each ship should have a different one. That isn't how it worked out, due to the budget, but that's why we don't assume the patches are for fleets or things of that nature, and we point out that "one ship, one patch" isn't how it worked out. We don't point it out on every page though, just the page on the topic.
The fact of the matter is that TOS had a lot of lofty goals and a late 1960s budget and studio. Production limitations, such as having to reuse a patch, can be "ignored" in "canon" if it doesn't mesh with everything else we know and the actual intent. We actually don't do that in this case, but we don't stop every related article to talk about the USS Ariel's use of the Enterprise patch either. - Archduk3 18:43, September 13, 2016 (UTC)
I think I see what you're saying. (By the way, when I posted my reply, it was indented. I see those colons must have somehow gotten deleted.) But I think (being unfamiliar with each other) we're actually talking past each other more than we're actually disagreeing--which is exactly why I signed in to post on this talk page and get a sense of people's thoughts regarding a page that confused me a little bit in reading it (a rare thing for MA, which I find excellent--and that's not to criticize the authors of the page). I'm simply trying to point out some areas that threw me off in the way it reads. I think we agree, patch or wall hanging, this page should be about Starfleet's insignia (the page's title) which is (usually) seen as some variation of a delta-like shape (even as far back as ENT), and I think we agree that the more upright delta symbol becomes the universal Starfleet insignia no later than TWOK. I think it's fair to say that's not speculation. It's simply on the screen. None of us made it up. I think what's confusing (and I didn't edit it; I haven't touched it) is that the article does go into considerable detail about the delta being used as an "assignment patch." (After all, it's hard to discuss it without at least mentioning it as a fact.)
So, from what you are saying, maybe what needs to happen is the article needs to be cut down and simplified as basically this: Here's what Starfleet's insignia looked like during ENT. (Frankly it wouldn't matter what shape or symbol it is--we're just saying here it is). Here's what it looked like during TOS. Here's what it looked like by TWOK, which just happens to resemble the (see "assignment patch") of X, Y and Z--if you even mention the patches at all. And then here's the TNG era. Just statements of irrefutable fact. And take out all the stuff about the Franklin, Epsilon Station, etc, as by your own words, that would be the topic of another page. Then it would be smother, less confusing, and easier to navigate. I think we might be in agreement. Moonjumper (talk) 21:23, September 13, 2016 (UTC)

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