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:I think we can safely eliminate the "contradiction" by stating that the "conflict" is between a canon source (the episodes in question) along with a canon/semi-canon source (writer/producer commentary), vs. an entirely non-canon source (novels). The choice of which to believe seems pretty clear to me. [[User:Roundeyesamurai|Roundeyesamurai]] 04:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 
:I think we can safely eliminate the "contradiction" by stating that the "conflict" is between a canon source (the episodes in question) along with a canon/semi-canon source (writer/producer commentary), vs. an entirely non-canon source (novels). The choice of which to believe seems pretty clear to me. [[User:Roundeyesamurai|Roundeyesamurai]] 04:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
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MKB- Which foreign translations identify Shelby from DS9 as "him"? This is important, because in some languages, it is customary to refer to a person of unknown sex as "he" (English, in fact, being one such language). Also, in some societies (and some military organizations), a person in authority is referred to with male pronouns, regardless of gender. [[User:Roundeyesamurai|Roundeyesamurai]] 04:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
   
 
==Hidden Frontier Reference==
 
==Hidden Frontier Reference==

Revision as of 04:08, 5 June 2006

I think we have a problem, gentleman, and I might be to blame.

There is no canon reference to her first name. As far as I'm aware, the name "Elizabeth" was only used in the New Frontier novels. I think I might've wikilinked this somewhere and its become a frequent reference.

BTW, I agree that the DS9 fleet Captain Shelby is a different person than Commander Shelby from BoBW..

  • The foreign translations refer to Captain Shelby as 'him'
  • Commander Shelby is part of the quite popular New Fronter series, she was not yet a Captain by the time period of the episode. I realize its a non-canon source, but it is one that is important to a lot of fans (so much so, in fact, that Peter David spent several passages of one of the NF books explaining a reference to the other Captain Shelby, in order to keep confusion to a minimum.

So, I'm thinking a disambiguation (or a partial diambig?) --Captain Mike K. Bartel 16:28, 1 Jul 2004 (CEST)

I can agree with the use of "Elizabeth", probably... I thought that had been established, but I was wrong. However, I strongly disagree with the she/he issue. I wish I could point to a reference, but I specifically recall an interview where Ron Moore stated that the mention of "Captain Shelby" was supposed to be a reference to the character from BoBW. I'll try to dig it up. -- Dan Carlson 16:45, 1 Jul 2004 (CEST)
I also strongly object to using New Frontier as ANY part of the argument, because the novels are utterly non-canon. The argument that Shelby can't be the captain of the Sutherland because she's supposed to be the first officer of the Excalibur is completely baseless according to the canon policy! -- Dan Carlson 16:55, 1 Jul 2004 (CEST)
That's true, but archivists here are just as likely to disregard data derived from producer & creator intentions sometimes: are we supposed to take all of the writer's opinions, musings and afterthoughts as canon? this is a pretty wide gray area. I'm not suggesting we disregard Moore's comment because of New Frontier, but I imagined we could keep our reference vague, so as to not contradict NF, and also because not all of the writer's intentions translate as canonically sensible. I don't believe its a huge issue if we combine the articles, I'm just pointing out the precedents -- Captain Mike K. Bartel
Then let me use a different argument. When, aside from inconsequential redshirts, has there ever been two characters with the same name in Star Trek? Never! Therefore, the precedent points towards them being the same character. Both of these articles should be combined under "Shelby". -- Dan Carlson 17:32, 1 Jul 2004 (CEST)
Well, there's been a "Lieutenant Janeway" mentioned as a crewmember aboard the Enterprise-D...

An acquaintance found the reference for me. Many thanks to Bond! :-D

Well.... my intent when I wrote the line was that this was indeed the same Shelby from BOBW. I thought it was a cool reference to throw in for the fans, but I had completely forgotten that John Ordover & Co. had very specifically and very politely asked us if we had any intention of ever using this character again and we (including me) had said, "No way -- do what you want with her." This very salient fact was pointed out to me after the show had aired and I had a rather sheepish conversation with Paula Block over in licensing and with John via e-mail explaining what had happened. Since I only used Shelby's last name in the episode, you're free to look at this either way -- it's really her or it's someone else with the same last name (it's a big fleet, after all). [1]

So, I guess that settles nothing, eh? Heh... -- Dan Carlson 15:08, 2 Jul 2004 (CEST)

I might be inclined to revamp the article to another configuration someday, based on that. However, I think my last edit worded it so it could be taken either way also. --Captain Mike K. Bartel

Let's remember the legal implication of the term "officially licensed"- it refers to a license granted by the owner of copyrighted and trademarked materials, for their limited use by another person or organization.
"Officially licensed" doesn't mean it's "approved as canon"; it just means that someone (in this case, Peter David) obtained lawful permission from Paramount to use trademarks (such as the title "Star Trek").
I think we can safely eliminate the "contradiction" by stating that the "conflict" is between a canon source (the episodes in question) along with a canon/semi-canon source (writer/producer commentary), vs. an entirely non-canon source (novels). The choice of which to believe seems pretty clear to me. Roundeyesamurai 04:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

MKB- Which foreign translations identify Shelby from DS9 as "him"? This is important, because in some languages, it is customary to refer to a person of unknown sex as "he" (English, in fact, being one such language). Also, in some societies (and some military organizations), a person in authority is referred to with male pronouns, regardless of gender. Roundeyesamurai 04:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hidden Frontier Reference

I am taking out the Hidden Frontier reference. Its non-canon, and not even part of the franchise.Jaz 05:06, 9 Jan 2006 (UTC)