Sargon's species Edit
Sargon was a person not a race. Although the information is inaccurate for Sargon, himself, it is (mostly) accurate for his people. Page should likely be moved, upon answering: "to where?". --Gvsualan 20:32, 17 Mar 2005 (EST)
- Maybe a move to the history of the Vulcan and Romulan species ? It seems that this has something to do with their ancestors -- Q 06:14, 20 Mar 2005 (EST)
- Spock only speculated that the Vulcans were descended from Sargon's people, he did not know for sure and neither did Sargon. Alex Peckover 03:16, 5 Apr 2005 (EDT)
- Sargon's Race was never named. If I understand MA's policy the page should be called Sargon (species) and there should also be a Sargon (planet) because void a name it has to be called by the top person from the episode. This page should be deleted, It is poorly worded, and has incorrect facts. Sargon begun colonizing 6 million years ago, and went extinct 500,000 years ago. The page contains nothing of value. --TOSrules 03:51, 5 Apr 2005 (EDT)
- Semi-agree. There's no need to delete the page as at some point someone (possibly me) will use it to write an entry about the character himself, his relationship with Thalassa etc. The article on Sargon's people should be called Sargon's race or something like that, and should be about their colonisation history, the evolution of their minds that caused the crisis in their society and their evolution in to beings of pure energy (which Kirk says is impossible, even after he'd already met the Organians). Alex Peckover 05:59, 5 Apr 2005 (EDT)
- Agreed. Spock said "That would tend, however, to explain certain elements of Vulcan prehistory." The use of the word "obviously" is not accurate. The existing article contradicts the people/person issue near the end. Seleya
Inaccurate statement Edit
- "Sargon and Thalassa realize that they do not have the control and discipline to use their mental powers in the physical realm and so they leave the Enterprise to roam other dimensions of existence, which they labeled as 'oblivion'."
This (and a similar note at the end of the article on Thalassa) seems to me an interpretation that doesn't really correspond with the actual exposition at the end of the episode. I thought that it was quite clear that by "oblivion", Sargon and Thalassa meant oblivion in the literal sense. I find that there are at least one element that indicate this (beside the fact that I don't remember anything quite like what's described in this article being mentionned in the episode). That element would be the fact that Henoch was said to have been destroyed simply by forcing him to leave his host body without him having access to another body. That would seem to indicate that Sargon and Thalassa couldn't have been doing anything very different from that. Just a thought. -WWorm
- Valid points. Its easy to drop into op-ed mode on these episodes. However, the first claim referred to Thalassa's epiphany that "Sargon was right" after torturing McCoy. Their powers were too much of a temptation among mortals. The second claim referred to Sargon's claim that "Henoch fled the body 'AND' was destroyed"...which implied an act of violence on Sargon's part. Previous post on expanding on the facts in the episode is also appropriate. --Sholle 18:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this, as I can't see the dialogue on these matters as any less than strictly literal. Especially on the point that by 'oblivion' they meant 'oblivion', as I really can't recall anything else about where they were going. -WWorm.
- What was the purpose of the recepticles of Sargon could exist in oblivion without the need for it? Federation 15:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Seeds and descendantsEdit
I've been worried about the general interpetation of Sargon's statements throughout Memory Alpha. I thought i'd add some thoughts here. As we know according to Sargon they colonized out in the galaxy around 6 million BCE. According to Spock there are discrepancies in the prehistory of Vulcan which would be explained away if there was a colony of Sargon's people on Vulcan at that time. As for humans, we know there were early Human forms walking around the Earth at the time and millions of years before it with an uninterrupted evolution, as is pointed out by Dr Ann Mulhall. It is left ambiguous then what is Spock theorizing. The fact that there is no evidence of any previous forms of the Vulcan lifeform on Vulcan prior to 6 million BCE and Sargon's people were the equivalent of "Adam" and "Eve" for the Vulcan race. Or is there simply some dramatic change in the early Vulcan lifeform evolution at that time, that could now be explained away by an advanced lifeform landing and colonizing it's natural habitat. It's also not clear if the Sargon's race was living on Vulcan for the whole 5,5 million years, prior to the death of the race on the homeworld.
It's not in my mind so straight forward what the figurative "seed" and "descendants" left behind by Sargon's race really were. Sargon compared it to humans leaving their "seed" on planets. As far as I know humans only left influence of contact, outposts and colonies at that time. Why would Sargon use words like "the seed that we had planted on other planets would take root, that one day you would build vessels as we did, and one day you would come here." It would not make sense if Sargon's race was the race that was left behind. Was the "seed" rather a sort of "cultural seed"? Did Sargon's people teach the primitive inhabitants to integrate into their values etc., similarly as Sargon states while they are constructing the android bodies, that they intended to go out and teach Humans. Or did they literally actually cross-breed with whatever was the Vulcan equivalent of Homo Erectus at the time and created a hybrid race of sorts? We also know that in 5,5 million years later Sargon's people had their ultimate ascension crisis, that led to the construction of the vault and preserving the disembodied minds of the last survivors. Would a race like this really loose all its advanced knowledge and regress into primitive god-worshiping Vulcans after being part of an advanced galactic race for 5,5 million years on the road to godhood themselves? Would it really be forgotten in a war by loosing some travel records that the race had lived on Vulcan for 5,5 million years? Or did the entire Sargon's race come home to fight it all out by 500,000 BCE and whatever the "seed" left behind was just the influences of their ancient visits and "children" and "descendants" the word of choice by these "surrogate-father figures" who began to think themselves as gods to the primitive lifeforms they encountered?
In any event the separate Ancient humanoid genetic seeding event occured some 4 billion years prior to all of this. So it doesn't contradict anything as is stated in the Romulan and Vulcan history articles among others. Sargon's race propably was a result of this edeavour as well, as they remember their original bodies to be almost identical to human-forms. We know the ancient seeding alone for example resulted in two races evolving on Earth from the Eryops, the Voth and Humans with at least a 20 million year gap in between when both species became spacefaringly advanced. So if the Voth predate the Sargon race, it's not a stretch that the Sargon's race was a product of the programming as well in around 6 million BCE. --Pseudohuman 15:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)