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There is an image here which is titled "The Romulan Administrative District in 2368", but how do you get the idea that it is an Administrative District. From what I have seen it is the Picture from Unification. But it was never called an Administrative District. It was only defined as the district in which Pardak represents. If anything they suggest it is not an Administrative District. Because they say that Pardak maintains a dwelling there on the days the council is not in session. --TOSrules 09:29, 6 Sep 2004 (CEST)
- Those screencaps are from TNG: Unification and ST: Nemesis. The Romulan Senate is obviously located there, and due to the central position in the city, it seems a safe assumption other government institutions are located there as well. Hence, administrative district. Ottens 11:26, 6 Sep 2004 (CEST)
- I am not arguing the City from Nemesis, But if anything I think the City shown in Unification was not the Administrative District. It is the District that Pardak represents, and he is only there when the council is not in session. Or so Data's records tell him. But it is enough to tell us it is not the Administrative District. Also remember that the fact that the city in Unification and the City in Nemesis look allot alike is due to the fact that they are both Romulan cities. --TOSrules 22:48, 6 Sep 2004 (CEST)
I've changed the label of the First City image to Krocton Segment, because that is what Data Calls it in Unification --TOSrules 09:10, 9 Oct 2004 (CEST)
Romulus moons? Edit
- If we're using Nemesis as a reference then it doesn't look like romulus has ANY moons, which might mean that the 'moon' visible in the Valley is just the tidaly locked planet of Remus(it's a planet right?) and the 2nd moon, i dunno, continuity error, maybe another tidally locked planet near remus-- me 01:39, 34 May 2006 (CEST)
The holographic re-creation of the Valley of Chula from "The Defector" clearly shows two moon-like objects in the sky. If one of those is Remus, it seems to suggest that either Romulus or Remus has at least one moon. -- EtaPiscium 08:31, 25 Sep 2004 (CEST)
- Just because you don't see a moon in orbit does not mean there is no moon to a planet. The moon could be behind the planet. If the image on this site is all we see of Romulus, then we don't even see the entire planet. --TOSrules 05:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Krocton Segment Edit
"Krocton Segment"? Reference, please ;) Ottens 12:39, 9 Oct 2004 (CEST)
you've got to watch Unification Part 1, but Data states that the recording was made in the Krocton segment in which Pardak represents. Later he identifies the street they were on as the same the recording was made on. --TOSrules 01:39, 10 Oct 2004 (CEST)
Is it possible that the city seen in Unification is not the capital of romulus, but the administrative city of the Krocton Segment? And the city seen in Nemesis is the capital of the empire. --Preator 15:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Beta Quadrant? Edit
In which episode of which series or which movie is mentioned that the Romulan homeworld is located in the beta quadrant? -- TheQz 23:46, 7 Mar 2005 (GMT)
- I've added a reference to an Okudagram from Star Trek: Insurrection, which shows the Romulan Star Empire in the Beta Quadrant. —Josiah Rowe 13:29, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
- I know I sound like a broken record, but can we really say that a single Okudagram that barely even appeared on screen in visible detail overrides the explicit statements of numerous characters on DS9 and VOY that Romulus was in the Alpha Quadrant? Surely the latter must take precedence in terms of what is considered canon.--Antodav 22:00, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
Star Trek was the only movie to be released along with a comic which describes what happened before and all the details about Nero's life and fate of Romulus. Actually the movie seems incomplete without introduction. Can we know whether this comic can be considered canon? MoffRebus 18:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's sadly not canon, but it is discussed in Apocrypha. Would anyone mind moving it in italics to the history section? – 22.214.171.124 18:10, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
To whoever keeps adding "alternate timeline" Edit
It's not an alternate timeline it is a prime timeline, by going back in time they create a new timeline in which it may not be destroyed but in the normal universe it is destroyed. — Morder 23:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- When Nero went back in time he informed Pike that he was there because of the destruction of Romulus. This information would cause the Romulans to take preemptive action. In the prime timeline Romulus cannot be destroyed because it's destruction caused Nero to go back in time and destroy Vulcan. The only thing that would prevent Nero from coming back in time is that Romulus is not destroyed. --Preator 23:55, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
That is the new timeline you're talking about not the one that Nero was from. — Morder 23:55, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Furthermore that was the whole point of the story. To create a new timeline for the characters to be in so that the franchise is rebooted... — Morder 23:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Praetor, that would mean Romulus was destroyed in the prime timeline, and only survives in the alternate timeline created by Nero. Not only that, but it would be speculation, because we have not actually seen that Pike and the Federation bother to save Romulus. Sure, they'd be dicks not to, but we have not seen them do it in canon. --OuroborosCobra talk 00:00, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
You are partially correct Praetor, the prime timeline may not exist anymore as a result of the supernova that destroyed Romulus but that's where Romulus was destroyed. The new timeline so far doesn't have the destruction of Romulus. — Morder 00:03, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- The prime timeline still exists. We just probably won't see that one anymore.- JustPhil 00:06, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- I have protected this page for a brief period due to the constant edits. The new timeline is what it is, and is not subject to change.--31dot 00:07, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
That's essentially what I meant. — Morder 00:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Maybe this will help anyone who doesn't understand. The destruction of Romulus and Spock's use of red matter, which created a black hole and sucked the Narada back in time this is what created the Alternate Reality. The destruction happened and will not unhappen in what we call the Prime reality. But in the new timeline, the time with all the new actors, Romulus still exists. Nero's actions, even by simply warning the 23rd century about what happened will not prevent the loss of his planet in his own timeline. Though, he probably should have just went home and took over creating a more powerful Romulan Empire...but that's not what he did... Anyway, hope this helps you Praetor. — Morder 00:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Nero wanted to strengthen the Empire by destroying every planet in the Federation. Would have made the Federation prime real estate.- JustPhil 00:31, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- It is not my intention to kick anyone when they are down, and I mean that with all seriousness. I myself have been talked to strongly by others on this site but in the end everybody remained (somehwat) friendly and there's not a user on this site I wouldnt edit with and be happy about it. But, with that said, explaining all this to the individual making these changes won't do that much good, I fear. We had almost exactly the same thing come up here and here. Also, the perosn in question just got blocked. Why am I saying all of this? Like i said, not to slam another user just to suggest a constant vandal watch on this article. With the recent blocks, it is very likely ip addresses and maybe even sockpuppets will soon appear. I hope that will not be the case and will welcome the individual in question back to MA with open arms if there is an attitude change. I just fear that there will not be one and further trouble is to come. -FC 01:01, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- The question to me is, many fans suspect and believe that a new Star Trek Show is inevitable, and many speculate that it could/would be in the Prime Universe. The question is, will Romulus be destroyed in such a show? 126.96.36.199 07:21, February 11, 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure, but this isn't really the proper forum for such a question, as article talk pages are intended to be used for discussion about changing the article only.--31dot 12:14, February 11, 2012 (UTC)
What month was Romulus destroyedEdit
- I don't think the month was given in the film; if it is in a novel, it would not be canon and would have to be mentioned in the Apocrypha section. 31dot 23:20, May 13, 2012 (UTC)
Location in the Beta Quadrant Edit
I believe that an encyclopedia should be consistent. For those items that were crafted by the art department, I interpret that there are three tiers. (There is a fourth tier, in which real world material is used. This material has its own set of challenges. This tier is not relevant here.)
- Tier 1 - An example of this is the Sector Z-6 map. I can read the map clearly. The material in this map is considered canon.
- Tier 2 - An example of this is the dedication plaque from the USS Enterprise-D. I can see the plaque in the episodes; however, what is written on the plaque, is illegible. I learn what is written on the plaque from an outside source. The material in this is considered canon.
- Tier 3 - An example of this is the Grankite Order of Tactics (Class of Excellence) for Jean-Luc Picard. I can not see this award. I learned of its contents from an outside source. The material in this is not considered canon.
The question, as I interpret it, is, where is Romulus and Remus located? What is our source for the location of these bodies? There is a PADD that shows the location of the Romulan Star Empire. What tier does this PADD fall into? I believe that the PADD is a Tier 2 source. I can see the PADD on Picard's ready room on the Enterprise-E and I learned of its contents from an auction. For me, what is on the PADD is as canon as what is written on the dedication plaque.Throwback (talk) 03:55, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
- The PADD only shows a simplified blob of where the Empire approximately is located. In my opinion, specific planet locations should not be speculated from it. Until we have something more specific, like with Qo'noS, we should just state that Romulus is in Sector Z-6 and leave it at that. --Pseudohuman (talk) 12:51, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
The PADD shows that the Sol system was at the border of the Alpha-Beta Quadrant. In "The Explored Galaxy", Romulus and Remus are to the "east" of Sol and to the "north" of Kling (at the time of the map's creation, the homeworld of the Klingons). This matches to a tee what is depicted on the PADD. I think this evidence is more specific. Throwback (talk) 13:22, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
- It doesnt matter. A reader can speculate that without us filling in the blanks. The dot marking Sol is about 2000 light years in size. I could speculate from the apparent distances in the Explored Galaxy map that Kling, Romulus and Remus should be within that dot as well. But since the quadrant border is not labeled in one and the planet locations are not labeled in the other, we should not speculate on it. --Pseudohuman (talk) 14:18, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
I don't understand what you are getting at. I interpret your earlier post as that there needs to be something more specific. I provided something more specific. Then, I am told that it doesn't matter. I don't understand this. In my pov, facts build upon themselves. I have a map from an earlier source. It shows the relative locations of named locations in the galaxy. Later, there is the PADD map. I overlap this map onto the earlier map. I have a better understanding of the galactic map. I don't compartmentalize facts, which is something I feel you do. For the record, and for the future, I am not into fan created productions and I never got into the non-canon material. I am an avid reader of history and archaeology, and I am a news junkie. So, please don't treat me as some fan who is attempting to force his pov onto the wiki. I am not that kind of person. I contribute here because it relieves my anxiety. I have Asperger's Syndrome, which means that I have less developed communication skills than most people and I am quick to the draw when I feel that I am being disrespected. So, when you speak with me, it's best to speak to me as if I am a man-child and I need to have things explained out to me. Sorry, about the tangent, however, I feel that there needs to be some understanding of my situation. I know that I haven't treated you fairly in the past and I apologize. So, returning to the topic, what are you getting at?Throwback (talk) 14:27, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
- Star Trek canon often leaves things obscure on purpose, so that there is more room to tell different types of stories in the future. This is one of those cases. You cannot provide anything more specific because there is nothing more specific available at the moment. All we know for certain is that Romulus is in Sector Z-6. That is all we should say. MA is as much about respecting the intentional obscurity as much as it is about respecting the minute details. --Pseudohuman (talk) 16:22, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
And, MA is about role-playing. From the Policies and Guidelines,
- Memory Alpha's primary point of view is that of a character inside the fictional Star Trek universe – an archivist at Memory Alpha, the Federation library planet. 
I am believing that I am an archivist centuries removed from the events. Much of the past has been lost. The only surviving historical records are the episodes and films. So, I am presented with maps of the galaxy. What would an archivist do? I would attempt to make sense of the contradictions and come up with a conclusion with the least amount of assumptions. One map shows that the planet Remus and Romulus are to the "right" of Sol and another map shows that the Romulan Star Empire is to the "right" of the Sol System. My conclusion would be that the two maps are saying the same thing, the planets Romulus and Remus, which have been identified as major worlds, with Romulus as the capital world, of the Romulan Star Empire, are to the "right" of the Sol system. This would place them in what my ancestors called the Beta Quadrant. This doesn't mean the facts are cemented in place. Some new piece of data may come my way that may change my perspective of the past. It is a continual process of learning.Throwback (talk) 07:41, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
- and then because several episodes establish Romulans to have territory in the alpha quadrant, a map showing romulan territory to begin 4,000 light years into the beta quadrant would be in that light considered to be an unreliable map to determine anything. --Pseudohuman (talk) 13:34, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
The nature of intragalactic powers is to expand. This is mentioned about the Romulans, that after they acquired warp drive, they expanded. Look at how quickly the Federation expanded in territory. In 5 years, from 2370 to 2375, the Federation gained nearly 50 members and in one year period, they had expanded their exploration of the galaxy by 8%. The Federation is spread across 8000 light years. It is not inconceivable for another intragalactic power to expand not only 4000 light years, but more than that. As T'Pol says in "Judgment", "Empires tend to expand" The Romulans have expanded, and now finding that they are surrounded on all sides The Romulans expanded into the Alpha Quadrant, just have the Klingon Empire, and have sphere of influences in this quadrant. At no point, is it stated that the Romulans are an Alpha Quadrant species.Throwback (talk) 21:05, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
- You are inventing out of your own imagination that they expanded from Beta Quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant. How do you know it wasn't the other way around? That is a rhetorical question, because I already know you dont know. --Pseudohuman (talk) 21:40, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
I believe in consistency. I have to correct the articles I have either amended or created for the Starfleet characters from the 22nd century, because there is no Earth Starfleet. When you and I were discussing the Delta Vega (star), when you produce the evidence that a sector could be named after a prominent star or prominent planet, I accepted the source for that is like hearing the word of God. They are the creators of this universe. I read your response, which I interpreted as elation at winning this discussion. For me, I felt a door had been opened, and I began to re-evaluate what I believe about the sector names. Now, the Romulan Star Empire lists crew sources or sources that were written by people in the crew that identified the Empire in the Beta Quadrant. There is visual evidence of this in the maps, which place Remus and Romulus and the Romulan Star Empire to the "right" of Sol, in the Beta Quadrant. How do I reconcile the difference between the Empire being called an Alpha Quadrant power and it having a Beta Quadrant origin? I look to the canon, looking for concepts that I know exist in the real world. I find a map that shows the extent of the Dominion sphere of influence. This is a concept that I know from the real world. My answer is this, based on canonical evidence, that the Romulans expanded their empire and their sphere of influence into the Alpha Quadrant. They are considered by those who live in the Quadrant and the invaders from the Gamma Quadrant as a power in the quadrant, for they have the ability to affect the political and diplomatic course of events in this quadrant. How can you ignore what the producers intended when it doesn't agree with your point-of-view?Throwback (talk) 00:48, August 13, 2014 (UTC)
- I dont. You are the one ignoring producers intent. In this case the intent is for the viewer to know only that Romulus is in Sector Z-6. Behind the scenes notes are just what they are. They are noted in the bgsection. --Pseudohuman (talk) 03:25, August 13, 2014 (UTC)
The issue with this discussion as I see is that there are only two individuals here conversing. My mind is open to Remus and Romulus being in the Beta Quadrant, and I feel your mind is closed to this. I could turn up any additional evidence that I could find and you would find a reason to refute it. And, I could do the same with your evidence. (I do notice that you haven't produced evidence to support your cause. Do you have any?) Another issue I have with this discussion is that I feel you accept what the producers wrote when it suited your purpose, as in the issue with the Delta Vega (star) page, and when it doesn't, like here, you don't accept it. It was they who said that Romulus/Remus are located in the Beta Quadrant and nothing in the canon challenges that. In fact, the available evidence supports it. Maps are good for giving the location of places; however, there are built-in limitations. The globe in my room is not accurate in the depiction of the landscapes, especially near the poles, because of the limitations of the Mercator system. Regardless, this has turned into a war of attrition - who will tire of the discussion and cede to the other person? I am not moving from my position and I feel you are not moving from your position. There are so few of us here who are active members of this wiki.Throwback (talk) 05:47, August 13, 2014 (UTC)
- My mind is not "closed" at all. The quadrant location of the planet has simply not yet been established in canon. Therefore it must not be in the in-universe section. There are many other such possibilities that are not contradicted by canon. But also are not yet established. --Pseudohuman (talk) 12:31, August 13, 2014 (UTC)
I feel you will be waiting a long time indeed. For now, there is "The Explored Galaxy" map and the map from "Insurrections". Generally, they are in consensus where Romulus/Remus and the Romulan Star Empire are located. Then there is the written material for the series and for the fans written by members of the crew, that back up the canonical evidence. I feel that you are loath to introduce real world material into the Star Trek universe. For me, for a fictional universe to work, it has to be based in reality. What does the real world inform me about empires? It informs me that empires begin at a center and expand outwards. Hattusa was at the center of her empire, Rome was the center of the Roman Empire, Persepolis was the center of the Persian Empire, Athens was the center of her empire, Cnstantinople was at the center of the Eastern Roman Empire, Britain was at the center of her empire, and America was at the center of her empire. (My knowledge of Far East Asia is limited, so I am not able to draw on examples.) Empires don't have to be aggressive for them to expand. America is an empire through diplomatic and economic means, through international prestige. She has nearly 700 military bases scattered around the world, which she uses as forward operating bases in times of crisis. Which brings up another point - America is identified as a Western Hemisphere country, yet she has tremendous influence on the Eastern Hemisphere. This ties into how is the Romulan Star Empire a Beta Quadrant intragalactic power, and yet be called an Alpha Quadrant power. Personally, I am not someone who can compartmentalize things or people or anything for that matter into neat little boxes. The world is far too complex, animals, inluding people, are far too complex for that, and history is far too complex for that. I feel that you compartmentalize the world and I feel that you want to be told explictly that this is what it is. Remember, I said that one of the conditions of being a member of this wiki is that the editor is a role player. I am playing the role of an archivist on the Memory Alpha planet centuries removed from the events depicted. As in the real world, there is discussion about what the evidence tells us. I have read of these discussions and I have read of how one person or another had dominated the conversation, to the detriment of learning about an ancient people. For the decipherment of the Mayan language, one man's intrepretation of the language was considered for verbatim the truth, until someone else came with another interpretation, which led to the translation of the language and to a greater understanding of the Mayans. I am content to leave Romulus and Remus and the Romulan Star Empire in the Beta Quadrant for that it is depicted in the canonical evidence. Now, if we get new canonical evidence that says that these planets are in the Alpha Quadrant, I would be the first to back the change. One has to work with what they have, until a new piece of knowledge is discovered. This is how interpretating the past works.Throwback (talk) 13:16, August 13, 2014 (UTC)
- You are providing excellent examples of how fanon "facts" are created by some fans. They just don't belong in Memory Alpha. --Pseudohuman (talk) 18:49, August 13, 2014 (UTC)
How am i providing excellent examples of fanon facts? I read the link you directed me to. How does what some fans apply to what I am doing? In my country, there is a show called Face-Off (TV Series. It's a reality show where make-up artists compete against each other for prizes. The host of the show McKenzie Westmore, the daughter of Michael Westmore. One of the things I have learned from the show is that the artists need a basic knowledge of anatomical structure. This is based in reality. When the artist is asked to leave, one of the reasons given is that their creations are not anatomically correct. I have studied the history of mythology and fantasy. It has to be rooted in some historical or emotional truth.Throwback (talk) 19:06, August 13, 2014 (UTC)
- I'll try to explain where you fly off the rails. Based on the Explored Galaxy map, Romulus is located some distance into the Beta Quadrant direction from the Alpha Quadrant systems Sol and Vulcan. Maybe about 50 light years give or take. Romulan Star Empire has space in the Alpha Quadrant, we know this from dialogue. We have a PADD map that shows an area of space in the 24th century belonging to the Empire some 3,000 light years into the Beta Quadrant. The map does not show the area controlled by the Federation or the Empire in the Alpha Quadrant. Sol is marked with a 4,000 light year blob near a 1,000 light year thick line of where the Quadrant border is. Comparing these two maps a rational contributor comes to the conclusion that "Sol and Romulus seem to be pretty much at the Quadrant border. And we'll just have to wait for more on-screen references to make further determinations. Until then, let's just say that Romulus is in Sector Z-6, and let's let the reader evaluate if they want to accept the current behind the scenes information." You are based on some weird rationalizations claiming that capital planets must be at the center of the empire, never near the border, like with Cardassia for example, or as we canonically already know Romulus to be in the same sector as the Empires border with the Federation. And we just have to put a Quadrant designation into the in-universe part of the page, because you have a personal obsession to do so. No we don't. Just leave it blank. Please. --Pseudohuman (talk) 23:57, August 13, 2014 (UTC)
"The Explored Galaxy" map is unreliable on distances. I know the distance between Sol and Alpha Centauri from a chart in the canon. It is about 4 light years. Using this as a measuring stick, I used an index card, which I marked with notches for the distance between Sol and Alpha Centauri and I was able to arrive at 32 light years as a scale. Here are the distances:
- Sol-Romulus/Remus: 28 light years
- Sol-Vulcan: 8 light years away
- Sol-Delta Vega: 20 light years
- Sol-Tau Ceti: 4 light years away
- Sol-Kling: 36 light years away
- Sol-Sirius: 4 light years away
These distances are clearly inaccurate. Vulcan is 16 light years away, according to ENT, and Sol is not at the galactic rim. It is located 20,000 light years from the galactic rim. While we are discussing the blobs, the distance between Sol and the Cardassia/Bajor blob would be wrong as well, if we accept background sources that state Earth is 52 light years away from these two. If that is the case, then they would be closer to the Alpha-Beta Quadrant, then they are depicted. And that is what is shown in the galaxy map in Season 7 of Voyager. I recognize that the distances in these maps are inaccurate; what is important in my opinion is where the location of the places are. There has been consistency in that the Romulan Star Empire is located in the Beta Quadrant and that the planets are in that empire. I accept that you are right about empires for I can think about some examples, the Carthaginian empire for example. There are some empires where the capital city was located at the empire's edge. The thing is that, the capital world or worlds are located in the empire and not outside of it.Throwback (talk) 03:03, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
- You are completely right about the fact that both maps are unreliable to make determinations about distances and locations. This is why we leave it blank. --Pseudohuman (talk) 13:19, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
- I removed the Beta Quadrant association. Encyclopedia for example also written by Okuda includes a note about the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire spilling over into the Alpha Quadrant side of the border. Also canonically they do as well. So the Insurrection map only shows a part of the Empires. We need to wait for a better canon reference to call this one. We know Romulus is at the very edge of the border with the Federation from Balance of Terror. It's just too inconclusive at this point. --Pseudohuman (talk) 21:13, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
I feel that you have undermined your own argument. I have to bring it out that your second and third sentence undermine your last sentence. If the empires "spilled over" into the Alpha Quadrant, then that would support my contention that these intragalactic powers were located originally in the Beta Quadrant. They had been contained by various factors. One of these factors was the Coalition, which later became the Federation. Another was technology. The Romulans had fusion reactors powering their warp drive. (Scotty identified their motive power as impuluse power; there are examples in the canon Star Trek of ships having fusion drives for their warp engines. Ex. the Mariposa.) This has moved from being an invention of my mind to a statement by a production crewmember. In my last post, I didn't say tha the maps were unreliable on the location of the Romulan Star Empire - I said that they were inconsistent on distance. "The Explored Galaxy" map depicted the location of the primary planets and the RNZ to the right of Sol, in what would later become known as the Beta Quadrant. The map in "Insurrection" depicted the location of the RSE to the right of Sol, in the Beta Quadrant. This is consistency. Lastly, I may be mentally disabled, not mentally ill. There is a difference between the two. I do not possess an irrational mind, the antithesis to a rational mind. My disability is Asperger syndrome. It is not speculation to say that Romulus and Remus and the Romulan Star Empire are in the Beta Quadrant. It is a fact, supported by canonical evidence and by producer intent. Throwback (talk) 02:02, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
- Memory Alpha is not about filling in the blanks with speculations and this is not a support group for the mentally disabled. Most fan-speculation is supported by some random canonical bits of information or some production member statements. It still does not make the speculation itself canon. You seem to have an extremely hard time understanding this. --Pseudohuman (talk) 03:31, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
Really? For Delta Vega, you used a random production member statement to support your point-of-view and to support your merger proposal. I am using the canonical evidence - the Sector Z-6 map, the Explored Galaxy map, and the Insurrection map - for saying that Romulus and Remus are located in the Beta Quadrant. The Sector Z-6 map depicted Romulus and Remus in the Romulan Star Empire and illustrated that they were near the Romulan Neutral Zone. The Explored Galaxy map depicted the planets and the RNZ to the right of Sol. The Insurrection map depicted the location of the Romulan Star Empire to the right of Sol in the Beta Quadrant. With each map, the level of knowledge increases. This is not speculation; this is the process buidling on what came before. I raised the possiblity that the Romulans expanded into the Alpha Quadrant. You called that, "an invention of my imagination." Now, I learned that this idea was also put out there by Mr. Okuda. I felt that you were implying that I am irrational, by using the phrase "rational contributor". I have been told that irrational thinking is a trait of the mentally ill. I felt that I needed to correct your perception. Hard time understanding what you are saying? What I have noticed is that you are unreasoning and will use disparaging comments. I have noticed that you have a loathing for some fans. I don't know where or when you developed this dislike. Capricorn says that you are frustrated with me. I wouldn't know if this is true. Every piece of data that ever existed is open to interpretation. It is in the nature of humans to interpret this data. You have your interpretation, I have my interpretation. What I do feel is that you treat each piece of evidence as if they exist in their own individual world (what you call random) and have little or no connection to the other. When I was in college, I learned about the beliefs of a Southern California tribe who believed that everything in the world is connected. I see a connection between the three maps and I see that you treat the three maps as if they aren't connected, as if they are random. Honestly, what I have learned about history, is that this is non-sense. There is no randomness in this world. There are three maps and they are connected by two or more commonalities - the RSE, the planets, the RNZ - and they build upon each other. If we were together at a paleontological site, I would see the levels building upon each other and I would see the connection between the different levels, between the animals in each level, and I would see you arguing that each level was unconnected to each other, that each piece of data was random. You would tell me that I am speculating about the connection between the different levels, that I am induling in irrational thinking, that I am creating inventions of the mind, that I am one of those scientists who comes up with cockamamy theories, you know, like aliens populating the earth with life, and so on. So, yes, I have an understanding of you.Throwback (talk) 04:22, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
- Memory Alpha is not a paleontological site. Memory alpha is also not about "my speculation vs your speculation". Memory Alpha is simply anti-speculation. --Pseudohuman (talk) 13:49, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
I think you do not understand analogy and I think you do not understand that interpretation is different than speculation. Evidence Explained:
- As historical researchers, we might draw the following distinctions between speculation, hypothesis, interpretation, and proof:
- Speculation is typically presented as an end-point to a disappointing research process, at which point the researcher has run out of ideas. Often, its presentation is prefaced by an assertion such as, “No evidence exists to prove this, but … .” Typically, the assertion will carry no documentation or, as a smoke screen, will cite material that—when examined—does not support the assertion at all.
- Hypotheses represent an interim state—one in which we recognize that our research and analyses are still seriously incomplete. We accept our hypotheses only as possibilities to be further tested and soundly proved before we can validly assert an opinion.
- Interpretation is an impermanent conclusion we reach after we feel we have adequately applied all the building blocks of proof. The strength of our interpretation will depend heavily upon the investment we have made in our study of context. We consider our interpretation to be impermanent because we recognize that the discovery of new evidence or the application of new insights or other research methodology might require altering that interpretation.
- Proof is the body of evidence and reasoning that we offer to support our interpretation. The quality of the work that creates this body of evidence usually determines the sustainability of our conclusion. 
Remember, one of the conditions for being on Memory Alpha is that you and I are role-playing as historical researchers. This is from the policies and guidelines. I examine the maps from "Balance of Terror", "Conspiracy", and "Insurrection". The maps show that the RSE is located to the right of Sol, in what would become known as the Beta Quadrant. I accept that at some future point that may change; however, for now, that is what the evidence is telling me. Then there is the material from the production crewmembers who have stated for nearly a generation that the RSE started as a Beta Quadrant power - Mike Okuda, Geoffrey Mandel, etc.. This is my body of evidence. I ignore all other sources of information. I think there is a vast chasm between us and I do not think that it will be bridged. I think there are cultural, linguistic, and psychological factors to be considered when looking for a reason that we can't speak with each other. I feel that we speak past each other and I feel that you have become obsessed with stamping out speculation without, first, understanding what it is, and second, understanding that your body of evidence contradicts you. In one of your posts, you write that Mike Okuda said in the encyclopedia that the RSE spilled over into the Alpha Quadrant. This cuts your position at the knees.Throwback (talk)
One last point. You write on Delta Vega merger, Always good to go with producers intent when something is canonically a bit uncertain. :) If the Romulus and Remus location is uncertain, then by your words alone, we must fall back on producers intent. And what is that intent? Romulus and Remus are in the Beta Quadrant.Throwback (talk) 15:35, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
- Nothing in canon points to Romulans starting out as a Beta Quadrant power. Memory Alpha policy is to interpret all available canon facts in a way that they are not in contradiction. Romulans are mentioned on screen to be an Alpha Quadrant power with space in the Alpha Quadrant. Therefore, the Insurrection map is not an accurate depiction of the entire Romulan space. Therefore your so called "evidence" trail falls to shit at that point. But because you seem to have an obsession to pin the planet into one Quadrant or another, you go off into a tangent of speculation without seeing that all of that process happening inside your head is speculation. --Pseudohuman (talk) 16:10, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
Did I touch a nerve Pseudohuman? I have asked 31dot on what the policy is on swear words. Sector Z-6 map established that Romulus/Remus were located in the RSE, near the Romulan Neutral Zone. The Explored Galaxy established that the three are to the right of Sol. The map in Insurrection established that the RSE was to the right of Sol in the Beta Quadrant. This is evidence and an examination of the evidence does support the assertion that RSE was a Beta Quadrant power. So, I have moved into intrepretation. I can repeat these facts infinitum. They exist. Then there is the quote from Michael Okuda, which you mentioned in one of your earlier posts, in the Encyclopedia where he stated that the Romulans expanded into the Alpha Quadrant. It was you who used producer intent for merging Delta Vega (star) into Delta Vega. When the intent doesn't support your contention, you dismiss it.Throwback (talk) 18:38, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
- Okuda has never stated that Romulans expanded their Empire into the Alpha Quadrant. Exact quote from the Encyclopedia is: "The United Federation of Planets is mostly located in the Alpha Quadrant, although parts spill over into Beta...The Klingon and Romulan Empires are located in the Beta Quadrant, although they spill over into Alpha." This is already established in canon. You dont need to look for producers intent from some obscure behind the scenes notes. It is there in canon. Romulans and Klingons have space in the Alpha Quadrant. All the behind scenes references placing Romulus into the Beta Quadrant come from out-dated sources that do not display the area Romulans have in the Alpha Quadrant. The map in Insurrection does not establish anything other than the fact that Romulans have space in the Beta Quadrant as well, it does not show the area the Romulan Empire has in the Alpha Quadrant. You are not interpreting, you are just cherry picking and speculating. --Pseudohuman (talk) 22:04, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
I see that you couldn't agree to a forty-eight hour cease-fire. I have read your comment and I am troubled by your issues of comprehending the English language. The sense of spillover is, an instance of overflowing or spreading into another area: there has been a spillover into public schools of the ethos of private schools. According to a thesaurus, the spread of learning: expansion, proliferation, extension, growth; dissemination, diffusion, transmission, propagation. Do you notice the word expansion? Here let me bold the word for you. the spread of learning: expansion, proliferation, extension, growth; dissemination, diffusion, transmission, propagation. Michael Okuda did state the Romulan Star Empire did expand into the Alpha Quadrant. However, this requires an understanding that words have synonyms, a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language, for example shut is a synonym of close. I agree with you that the map in "Insurrection" doesn't show the expansion of the RSE; it is impossible to depict a 3-dimensinal galaxy on a 2-dimensional map. What the maps depict is that Romulus and Remus and RNZ and RSE were located in the Beta Quadrant. This is the canonical evidence. The producer intent is supporting the canonical evidence.Throwback (talk) 00:27, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
I thought I would write a short summary of the points raised in the discussion above, if someone wants to comment on this further. First of all, the above was not a discussion about "Is Romulus in the Beta Quadrant or not," it was a discussion about "would that be a canonically declared fact at this point?" We agreed that in several behind the scenes non-canon references it has been asserted that Sol marks the exact border between the Quadrants. If this in fact is the case in canon as well, Romulans actually seem to reside in the Beta Quadrant, based on a map seen in several episodes.
Before "The Search Part II", no canon Quadrant association about the Romulans was ever made in any episode or film. Since then, the writers decided to start referring to the Romulans exclusively as "one of the great Alpha Quadrant powers" with territory in the Alpha Quadrant during the Dominion War saga, with a border with the Cardassians. An old outdated re-used graphic from Star Trek Deep Space Nine Technical Manual made an illegible on screen appearance in Star Trek Insurrection.   In the illegible graphic the quadrant border line intersects a huge dot labeled as Sol. Throwback felt strongly that all this is a clear enough canon statement that Romulus is located in the Beta Quadrant.
So whats the problem. I tried to explain that if the distances in the Explored Galaxy map are accurate to any degree, all the planets would be located along the thick Quadrant borderline depicted in the Insurrection map. And with all the dialog associations with the Alpha Quadrant. There does not appear to be a very clear statement yet. Possible, for sure, but too uncertain at this point to draw a definitive conclusions from comparing the two inaccurate maps. --Pseudohuman (talk) 11:57, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
Location of Romulus and the EmpireEdit
On screen and in dialogue, Romulus and the Romulan Star Empire have been exclusively established as located in the Alpha Quadrant of the galaxy. It has also been stated that the space of the Romulan Empire was surrounded by the territories of the Cardassians, Klingons and the Federation, all with borders with one another.
The first time this fact began to be established occurred in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, in the episode "The Search, Part II", where the Romulan Star Empire was identified as one of the great powers of the Alpha Quadrant. For the Dominion, there were four great powers in this quadrant: the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans and the Cardassians. With the Battle of the Omarion Nebula, two of these threats had been reduced in effectiveness - the Romulans and the Cardassians. By "Call to Arms", the Cardassians were in an alliance with the Dominion and three powers, small and great, had signed non-aggression pacts with the Dominion. These powers were the Miradorns, the Tholians, and the Romulans. In the opinion of Odo, the Dominion was ...making impressive inroads into the Alpha Quadrant.... In "In the Pale Moonlight", it was revealed that the Dominion forces were crossing the Cardassian-Romulan border and were launching attacks against Federation ships from there. The Dominion was secretly planning to invade Romulan space from Cardassia, and, by their estimation, the Romulans would be defeated in three weeks. When Benjamin Sisko was attempting to persuade Senator Vreenak to consider having the Romulans join the offensive against the Dominion, Sisko said "I'd pick the side most likely to leave us in peace when the dust settles. Maybe you're right. Maybe the Dominion will win in the end. Then the Founders will control what we now call Cardassia, the Klingon Empire and the Federation. So, instead of facing three separate opponents with three separate agendas, you'll find yourselves facing the same opponent on every side. There's a word for that. Surrounded".
The association of Romulus with the Alpha Quadrant was carried over to Star Trek: Voyager. In "Flashback", Captain Kathryn Janeway reminisced about what it would be like to live in James T. Kirk's era, with "The Alpha Quadrant still largely unexplored." and "Romulans hiding behind every nebula". In "Message in a Bottle", a section of the Romulan border was identified to be located near the edges of the Alpha Quadrant. In "Bliss", when it seemed that the USS Voyager would find a way back home, Tom Paris stated that he looked forward to encountering Cardassians, Ferengi and Romulans again in the Alpha Quadrant. In "Flesh and Blood", Chakotay identified the Romulan disruptor as an Alpha Quadrant weapon. In "Q2", in a simulation, several Alpha Quadrant species were fighting over mining rights to a planetoid, and Q Junior had to find a way to settle the dispute. The species listed were the Nausicaans, the Bolians, the Cardassians, the Romulans, the Ferengi, and the Bajorans.