Talk: Rape

Revision as of 03:17, 2 March 2012

Votes for Featured status

Winn Adami. Self-nomination. Just finished writing this one. -- EtaPiscium 08:18, 2 Oct 2004 (CEST)

Support. Lots of info. --BlueMars 13:50, Oct 2, 2004 (CEST)
Archived. --Alan del Beccio 00:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

More pics

This could use another pic or two. I think one of her and Dukat in the Firecaves would look nice around the bottom of the article. Jaf 20:43, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)

That would be nice to see, I agree. Also what this needs is a link to a "Real World PoV" article about how much DS9 fans despise this character.....– Lotus000 22:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Do they not like that the character exists, or do they not like the character because she's an unlikeable antagonist? 68.123.28.172 23:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not to the second idea. Any article like that would very quickly be deleted. Memory Alpha is not here for personal fan opinion. I can't think of a way an article like that could be done and still be encyclopedic. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 23:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Another pic that would be nice to see is a picture of her in the First Minister's office. ~Anya Prynn | Talk 19:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Text dump from Wikipedia article up for deletion

This is in danger of deletion on WP. Enjoy, hopefully. Much of it seems to be replicated in your article but there may be some useful information or links. Feel free to delete any or all of this text, with a Memory Alpha consensus of course, if and when you find any part of it unnecessary. One of three (see Talk:Nog and Talk:Rom) VvAnarchangelvV 19:32, January 10, 2011 (UTC)

Removed the text. It is now in the history in revision 1229340. -- sulfur 18:08, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

Winn Adami was raped (trigger warning: rape, rape culture)

Yes, okay, let's take this to the talk page indeed. Winn meets a man who she believes to be a Bajoran farmer in "'Til Death Do Us Part". It is actually Gul Dukat in disguise, claiming to be a guide sent by the Prophets. As "Anjohl" he becomes close to her, and eventually they have sex for the first time in (I believe) "The Changing Face of Evil". During "When It Rains..." Dukat is blinded by the Pah-Wraiths and thrown on to the street. She doesn't learn his true identity until "What You Leave Behind", when the Pah-Wraiths resurrect him from the poisoned wine and in doing so restore his Cardassian image.

And she is horrified. She is beyond horrified, she is disgusted with Dukat for fooling her, she hates herself for having had sex with him. She never once consented to having sex with Gul Dukat. Had she known Anjohl was Dukat, she would likely have had him executed on sight. It doesn't matter if she was the one to initiate the relationship with Anjohl, it matters that she had sex with Gul Dukat and was never given the opportunity to say no to Gul Dukat. That is rape. You want to stick with what canon tells us? That is what canon tells us. That Gul Dukat had sex with Winn Adami and she was not allowed to say no because she was not allowed to know who he was.

People have reverted my edits because it's an "improper use of legal terms". Well, rape by deception (also known as rape by fraud in some jurisdictions) actually is a crime. It's not universally recognized as yet, but people have been prosecuted for it and have gone to jail for it. More and more places are considering legislation to make this a crime. In Israel, "In 2008, the High Court of Justice set a precedent on rape by deception, rejecting an appeal of the rape conviction by Zvi Sleiman, who impersonated a senior official in the Housing Ministry whose wife worked in the National Insurance Institute. Sleiman told women he would get them an apartment and increased NII payments if they would sleep with him." source. That is effectively what Dukat did: posed as a guide from the Prophets and told her (basically) that if she was in a relationship with him then she would achieve higher standing with the Prophets. It is only a victim who can say that he or she was raped, and Winn states quite clearly that had she known she was having sex with Gul Dukat she would have said no.

The show might not explicitly call it rape, but when have tv shows (especially in the 90s) wanted to openly discuss such issues? Winn Adami never agreed to have sex with Gul Dukat. Gul Dukat nevertheless had sex with Winn Adami, while altering his appearance in order to trick her into believing he was someone else. Ergo, Gul Dukat raped Kai Winn Adami. 149.130.215.172 01:48, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Nothing in this essay changes the fact that the term wasn't used in the show. That's what we're here to cover. This isn't the forum to analyze the show and compare with with real-world present day law.--31dot 02:02, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

In terms of real-world law, I was explaining why the person who took out the term "rape" because of present day law was wrong - it is present day law. In terms of the rest of this ... are you honestly trying to tell me that because Winn never says the word "rape", we can't? I highly doubt that if Worf pulled a phaser, walked up to a random security guard, and shot him in the face you would say I couldn't call that "murder" just because we don't know exactly what murder is defined as under Federation law. The fact is, IN THE SHOW, Gul Dukat has sex with Winn Adami without her consent, and that is rape. It's not explicitly verbally stated, but it is shown. 149.130.215.172 02:12, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really sure why such a charged term should be used by us when it wasn't in the show. You might have a point about it being shown, but by your own admission, the definition is not "universally recognized" and until it is we shouldn't apply it to observed situations.

It would also seem the writers of the episode didn't think it important enough to use that term, which would have been quite simple for them to do.--31dot 02:19, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Um, no, the fact that a definition isn't universally recognized doesn't mean we can't apply it to observed situations when it is beyond obvious, eg, man disguises himself, man therefore removes woman's capability to consent to the person she is in actuality having sex with, man and woman have sex, therefore man has raped woman. Until early this year/late last year in the U.S. the FBI definition for rape still had the word "forcible" in it, meaning for example that a frat boy drugging a girl's drink at a party and then having sex with her wasn't legally considered rape at a federal level. But if you asked people in, say, 2009 or 2010 if that was rape, they would say yes.

I don't agree with your assessment that because the writers didn't put the word "rape" in that means they didn't think it important. They could've had any number of reasons for not putting it in, ranging from what the network would allow, to what the executive producers would allow, to what time would allow, to what they thought would be in character. Speaking of character, let's look at the time frame here: Winn finds out the truth about Dukat's identity. Within ~20 minutes of audience time, which can't correspond to more than ~40 minutes of character time, during which Winn and Dukat are almost entirely alone in the Fire Caves, until Sisko comes, and when Sisko comes, he comes in guns blazing (almost literally). We don't see all those forty minutes. Maybe she flies into a screaming rage and berates Dukat for raping her. Maybe she just sits there, in shock as her life and her plans falling apart all around her, too horrified to say anything about her rape other than "to think that I took Gul Dukat to my bed...". Listen to her words. She is too shocked, too disgusted, to even say that they had sex out loud. That is not the writers thinking that a term isn't important, that is an accurate depiction of a huge number of rape victims, who have trouble admitting even to themselves that what happened was rape even years after the fact. She's traumatized. To require a statement of "I was raped" from her twenty minutes after the fact when she's alone with her rapist in order to call it rape is just ... you can't require that. That's just being blind to how some people react to their rapes. So you can't say that it would have been simple for the writers to put that in. No one but Winn knows both the true identity of Anjohl and that they had sex while she was unaware of his true identity, so it's not like anyone else can just say that either.

I'm also curious why your objection seems to center around the fact that the word "rape" is so "charged". You act like it's some terrible affront to Dukat when, in reality, if people have gotten to the last episode of DS9 and still cling to the belief that there's a decent person under the genocidal serial rapist, well, pointing out one more instance (after the "comfort women" on Terok Nor) isn't going to change much. It doesn't matter if the term has a bad connotation, it matters if it is true and accurate, and based on what we are shown in canon it is 100% true and 100% accurate.149.130.215.172 03:17, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

@@ Line 40: / Line 40: @@
 ::Um, no, the fact that a definition isn't universally recognized doesn't mean we can't apply it to observed situations when it is ''beyond obvious'', eg, man disguises himself, man therefore removes woman's capability to consent to the person she is ''in actuality'' having sex with, man and woman have sex, therefore man has raped woman. Until early this year/late last year in the U.S. the FBI definition for rape still had the word "forcible" in it, meaning for example that a frat boy drugging a girl's drink at a party and then having sex with her wasn't legally considered rape at a federal level. But if you asked people in, say, 2009 or 2010 if that was rape, they would say yes.
 ::I don't agree with your assessment that because the writers didn't put the word "rape" in that means they didn't think it important. They could've had any number of reasons for not putting it in, ranging from what the network would allow, to what the executive producers would allow, to what time would allow, to what they thought would be in character. Speaking of character, let's look at the time frame here: Winn finds out the truth about Dukat's identity. Within ~20 minutes of audience time, which can't correspond to more than ~40 minutes of character time, during which Winn and Dukat are almost ''entirely'' alone in the Fire Caves, until Sisko comes, and when Sisko comes, he comes in guns blazing (almost literally). We don't see all those forty minutes. Maybe she flies into a screaming rage and berates Dukat for raping her. Maybe she just sits there, in shock as her life and her plans falling apart all around her, too horrified to say anything about her rape other than "to think that I took Gul Dukat to my bed...". ''Listen to her words''. She is too shocked, too disgusted, to even say that they had sex out loud. That is not the writers thinking that a term isn't important, that is an accurate depiction of a huge number of rape victims, who have trouble admitting even to themselves that what happened was rape even ''years'' after the fact. She's traumatized. To require a statement of "I was raped" from her twenty minutes after the fact when she's alone with her rapist in order to call it rape is just ... you can't require that. That's just being blind to how some people react to their rapes. So you can't say that it would have been simple for the writers to put that in. No one but Winn knows both the true identity of Anjohl and that they had sex while she was unaware of his true identity, so it's not like anyone else can just say that either.
-::I'm also curious why your objection seems to center around the fact that the word "rape" is so "charged". You act like it's some terrible affront to Dukat when, in reality, if people have gotten to the last episode of DS9 and still cling to the belief that there's a decent person under the genocidal serial rapist, well, pointing out one more instance (after the "comfort women" on Terok Nor) isn't going to change much. It doesn't matter if the term has a bad connotation, it matters if it is true and accurate, and based on what we are shown ''in canon'' it is 100% true and 100% accurate.
+::I'm also curious why your objection seems to center around the fact that the word "rape" is so "charged". You act like it's some terrible affront to Dukat when, in reality, if people have gotten to the last episode of DS9 and still cling to the belief that there's a decent person under the genocidal serial rapist, well, pointing out one more instance (after the "comfort women" on Terok Nor) isn't going to change much. It doesn't matter if the term has a bad connotation, it matters if it is true and accurate, and based on what we are shown ''in canon'' it is 100% true and 100% accurate.[[Special:Contributions/149.130.215.172|149.130.215.172]] 03:17, March 2, 2012 (UTC)