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Klingonese to Klingon language Edit

Personally, I find the name "Klingonese" to be fairly stupid sounding. As an improvement, I think that this should be moved to Klingon language. That sounds more official and is still the same thing. Comments? -Platypus Man | Talk 01:09, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)

  • The fact that you don't like the name doesn't change the fact that it's the name used on Star Trek. I find having "Klingon language" in bold equally stupid sounding, considering that's... not the name of it. 193.251.169.170 05:04, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC)
  • Klingonese isn't on quite the same level as Dominionese in that it was referenced as "Klingonese" by a 'Klingon in "The Trouble with Tribbles":
Korax: Of course I'd say that Captain Kirk deserves his ship. We like the Enterprise; we--we really do. That sagging, old rust bucket is designed like a garbage scow. Half the quadrant knows it. That's why they're learning to speak Klingonese.
So the Klingons themselves called it Klingonese or at least that is the way it is translated by the universal translator. I don't know if it was ever referenced as "Klingonese" again, but the point still stands that it is a perfectly canonical name, and the only name given to the Klingon language (was tlhIngan Hol ever stated onscreen?).--Tim Thomason 05:36, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC)
Quark: Having to learn all of this Klingonese is not helping my performance.

And tlhIngan Hol most likely does not come from any on screen source. In fact, I think all such references need to be removed from the article and limit it to only canon sources and only use the Klingon dictionary as a last resort. --Alan del Beccio 05:50, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC)

  • OK then, keep it. When I said this, I was unaware that anyone had ever said it onscreen, making the name non-canon. However, you have set me straight. I still think it sounds stupid, but the name can stay as Klingonese, although I'd still prefer the article moved to Klingon language. Even if Klingonese is valid, it is still not as official sounding as Klingon language. -Platypus Man | Talk 11:45, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC) (Edited 04:49, 22 Dec 2005 (UTC))

Redux Edit

I would like to reopen this discussion, becuase I don't think that it has been recieving the proper attention. There were only two times the Klingon Language has been referred to as "Klingonese", and a much larger number of times it has been referred to simply as "Klingon". I can remember Worf saying with surprise "You speak Klingon." on several occasions, and many others have done so too during the course of the different series. Especially in those situations, when the language itself was the topic at hand, it has been referred to as "Klingon" and not "Klingonese". So I suggest that Klingonese be moved to Klingon Language or Klingon language. I would welcome a discussion on the topic to prove either point. – Mütze 16:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as one redirects to the other anyways, does it really matter? I don't think so...
I prefer Klingonese because it is a simpler link to write. -- Captain M.K.B. 16:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

If the redirects stay intact, the Klingonese-link will be a redirect, and therefor still avaliable. As a geek among geeks (Do I anger people by saying that out loud on the Star Trek Wiki?) I think the *right* title should be the title used here, and for the above stated arguments, I think that Klingon Language and Klingon language capture the apparent intended meaning of the Trek Writers better thatn Klingonese. Just my two cents, and I am okay with every single person on this planet who doesn't care either way. Having found a spontaneous interest in the subject however, I do care. — Mütze 16:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Plat. Klingoneese sounds way to earth-like and is sterotypical for one who is uneducated about the Star Trek universe. I only know a few insults in Klingon, but for me, and those who care about the Klingons, it will always be, the Klingon Language, or Klingon. Your mothers all have smooth foreheads.--CaptainCaca 22:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Redux II Edit

When you get down to it, the only clear instance of anyone in any of the films or tv series saying "klingonese" is in a disparaging comment by Quark. Everyone else, time and time again, clearly refers to it as simply "Klingon" except for Korax, who calls it "Klingoni" in what seems to be a slightly botched line.68.151.216.165 19:47, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Korax refered to it as Klingoneese. If I remember correctly, this was the first reference to the Klingon language in the franchise. It may very well be slang for the Klingons. Which would be why Quark used it and Worf does not, but I do not thing it should be changed because people think it is stupid. The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.172.195.35 (talk).
The terms "Klignonese" and "Klingon language" have subtle differences in English. A word ending with -ese means "of said place", for example Japanese refers to the language, but also refers to things that come from Japan (Japanese food, Japanese people). If you wish to refer to specifically the language, then you should use the word (Japanese Language). Klingonese refers to things of Klingon origin (including the language), Klingonese food (food from the Klingon people) for example. The "official name" is tlhIngan Hol, which simply means "Language of the Klingons" (tlhIngan = Klingon, Hol = Language). If you wish to be accurate, then Klingon Language should be used when referring to specifically the language. --Qurgh 19:03, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Redux III Edit

Sorry, to restart this, but I'm new to MA. It's not only that "Klingonese" sounds strange, but the first line even says that Klingonese (also known more commonly as "Klingon")</> - so if it's more commonly, why does the entire text use that silly word, based on only two single uses on screen? I'm sure I can get lots more screen quotes that just say "Klingon" referring to the language. -- Klingonteacher (talk) 05:55, October 25, 2013 (UTC)

(As an aside first, please indent your comments properly, taking the shortest indent that hasn't been in use yet and keeping that indent throughout the discussion. This ist solved here be the subsection header I added, but keep it in mind for other discussions. Thanks.)
A problem that hasn't been brought up in the previous discussion is the fact that we already have an article with the name Klingon. We would need to create some way of disambiguation - and if we can prevent it because there has been another, "valid" name for the language, it might be better to do it that way. -- Cid Highwind (talk) 12:57, October 25, 2013 (UTC)

The disambiguation can be done by renaming the article to Klingon Language, but I wouldn't care about that too much; What bothers me more actually is the constant use of the word Klingonese throughout the text. In nearly every movie, every episode, people talk about "speaking klingon" or reading "Shakespeare in klingon". I believe that using "Klingonese" in two or three situations does not justify to use it constantly. The more common use should decide. -- Klingonteacher (talk) 13:48, October 25, 2013 (UTC)

Redux IV Edit

How many times do characters refer to the language on-screen as "Klingonese" or "Klingoni"? Once, maybe twice. How many times do characters refer to the language as "Klingon"? DOZENS. It's obvious that the name "Klingon" is the correct (English) name for the language, and that "Klingonese" (which isn't even what the character who is being relied on as defining the canon said) is the aberration. The article should be moved to Klingon language. -68.8.223.30 03:19, January 28, 2015 (UTC)

Can someone who has the ability to move articles please move this to Klingon language? It's more than past time for it to happen. The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.181.243.30 (talk).
The reason that hasn't happened is because there is a pretty straight forward procedure for suggesting that, and it wasn't done here, again again. - Archduk3 07:16, November 22, 2016 (UTC)
I concur. "Klingonese" is silly and has only been used once or twice at most. "Klingon" is far more common. --T smitts (talk) 20:58, December 8, 2016 (UTC)
I agree as well, and I have said it many times before; Therefore I have done some research and collected data in [this page of the Klingon language Wiki]. Since "Klingonese" is less used than "Klingon", it should be reversed: Klingonese should forward to Klingon language. And the name "klingonese" should not be used throughout the wiki. Even though it has been used once on screen, it still sounds odd like using the word "grammophone". -- Klingonteacher (talk) 08:01, February 8, 2017 (UTC)
I disagree. The fact that this idea has failed 3 times previous should never have produced this fourth attempt. Frequency, and how clunky or silly it sounds it irrelevant. --Alan del Beccio (talk) 14:42, June 19, 2017 (UTC)

Move suggestion Edit

Hi, this article should be moved to Klingon language. There are three different terms for the language spoken by the Klingons that appear in on-screen canon:

  • Klingonese. Uttered exactly once, by Quark (a Ferengi) in Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places, in a flippant comment to Worf. Never used by anyone else, including Klingons.
  • Klingonii (Klingoni, Klingonee). Spoken by the Klingon Korax in The Trouble with Tribbles. Some users, including whoever wrote the first paragraph in the "Background information" appendix on the Klingonese article, claim this as an example of the word "Klingonese"; the aforementioned paragraph cites the episode's script and the Star Trek Encyclopedia as support for this assertion. However, anyone who listens to the actor (or lip-reads him, for that matter) can hear/see that he distinctly and clearly says "Klingonii" with no "s" sound, whether you're watching the original version, the remastered version, or the DS9 appearance. What appears in the final aired product ("Klingonii") is canon, and something in the script that contradicts it ("Klingonese") is not. And Memory Alpha's own guidelines on canon state that the Star Trek Encyclopedia is "a guide to canon information, but [...] not canon in and of [itself]."
  • Klingon. Other than the two isolated incidences described above, literally every single time the language is referred to by name by any character, the name used is "Klingon". Klingons call it "Klingon". Humans call it "Klingon". Romulans call it "Klingon". Absolutely everyone calls it "Klingon", every single time.

People arguing for the name "Klingonese" seem to rest their argument solely on the fact that the first reference to the language is Korax's. Even ignoring the discrepancy between Klingonese and Klingonii, Memory Alpha guidelines clearly dismiss this as a valid argument:

Not everything stated in the series or films should be believed when it is not consistent with the rest of the information we have. We don't have to buy everything and make up twisted explanations where logic and common sense fail. The 79 decks of the Enterprise-A in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, for instance, are in conflict with everything else we know about refit Constitution-class starships and their layout, so that information is only noted in a "real-world" background note, instead of "in-universe".
- Memory Alpha:Content policy FAQ

Likewise, the fact that in one line of dialogue one character uses the word "Klingone(s)e" is not consistent with the rest of the information we have, which is that absolutely every single other reference to the language in the entirety of Star Trek calls it "Klingon". Korax's "Klingonii" is best regarded as a discarded remnant from before the solidification of canon, in exactly the same manner as Data's claim in "Encounter at Farpoint" that he was in the "class of '78". To try to reconcile the two contradictory statements is futile; to claim that "Klingonii" takes priority over (again) literally the entirety of Star Trek canon is indisputably wrong. The article should be moved to Klingon language. -70.181.219.135 10:52, March 15, 2018 (UTC)

This has failed 4 times in 12.5 years. "Klingon language" is an inexact term, "Klingonese" is an exact term, and above all, the redirect Klingon language to this page works just fine. Nobody is not going to find this page. Stop beating a dead horse. --Alan (talk) 18:55, March 15, 2018 (UTC)
There is never the slightest bit of confusion when a character on the show says refers to "speaking Klingon" so I don't know what on earth you mean by "inexact term", especially when compared to a term that is used precisely once in a flippant comment by a non-Klingon. The last time someone raised this issue, the response was that it "failed" because the poster didn't go through the proper procedure to request the change:
The reason that hasn't happened is because there is a pretty straight forward procedure for suggesting that, and it wasn't done here, again again. - Archduk3 07:16, November 22, 2016 (UTC)
This is why I did go through the proper procedure of requesting a name change. I think I did a pretty thorough job of demonstrating why "Klingon language" is the correct title for the article. The fact that this move has been raised multiple times by multiple people is demonstration in and of itself that the horse isn't dead and that there is an issue that needs to be addressed. It's astounding to me that your case against correcting such an inarguably wrong title for an article consists of "the right name redirects to the wrong name anyway so we shouldn't change it". If the article on William Riker was named "Wilfred Reicher" but searching "William Riker" redirected the reader to the incorrectly named article, would you say "Nobody is not going to find this page" and insist we leave it alone? -70.181.219.135 09:32, March 31, 2018 (UTC)

Okrand spelling Edit

Proof for being canon Edit

I'm taking up this topic again in a new section, because I know no better place to put it - and I'm aware I may be opening a pandora's box again. On this discussion page (and elsewhere), everyone keeps saying that Okrand's spelling is not canon; well, I recently discovered that it is indeed used on screen, although even very blurred and only clearly visible on the BluRay. Proof is in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, in the scene with klingon outpost Morska. While the crew is searching for the translation of the Klingon words, they are shown on a screen in the background. Some people may argue this is so blurred that it could be anything, when you know what it says, you can certainly recognize it - even just by the shape of the words.

Okrand Spelling used on screen

I have added evidence from the BluRay:

Screen 1 shows the words:
WHAT SHIP IS THIS?
OVER.
Dujvetlh 'oH nuq. rIn.

Screen 2 shows the words:
WHAT IS YOUR DESTINATION?
OVER.
nuqDaq ghoS. rIn.

I am not sure where we can add this information, but it is certainly relevant, since most MA-users are very strict regarding on "screen use" and well, this IS on screen use of Okrand's spelling. It may open an entire new world of possibilities regarding the Klingon language.
--- Klingonteacher (talk) 12:43, February 8, 2017 (UTC)

All this would mean is that the spelling of these words is canon, not the spellings in the entire language. 31dot (talk) 13:22, February 8, 2017 (UTC)

I understand what you mean, and taken literally, you are certainly right. But I'm sure we can make more of this: It shows that when the Universal translator picks up Klingon words, they are displayed on screen using the Okrandian writing which is used and presented only inside The Klingon Dictionary. Until now, all MA author argued that Okrand's spelling is not canon at all, it didn't even exist for them. I'm not saying that all of TKD must be canon now, but at least this one image gives a very weak proof that this writing method *exists* on screen. -- Klingonteacher (talk) 14:33, February 8, 2017 (UTC)

Maybe it's pidgin Klingon. --LauraCC (talk) 17:16, March 23, 2017 (UTC)

script spelling vs. Okrand spelling Edit

Today's change makes me so %@$§& angry again! I know that you are all so strict following the policy of using what is written in the script, but we also ALL know that what is written there is taken directly from the Klingon Dictionary. So why the hell do you change back something corectly spelled into some strange script based nonsense? There are people on this world who try to learn that language, and they want to see how it'c written so they can learn from it.

Haven't you noticed, for instance, that there are about eight ways to spell the curse "Ptak"? The authors just write what they want!

So please, if you insist to show the script's bibberish, at least add a not how it's spelled correctly, at least as backgroundinformation.

Nevermind - I'll do it my self. Seeing this really pisses me of.

-- Klingonteacher (talk) 16:02, March 23, 2017 (UTC)

If, as you say, people want to learn Klingonese, then perhaps the best source is, of course, the original source: "The Klingon Dictionary", and therefore they should be consulting that, not a wiki that is 99% dedicated to policies and things not found in the Klingon dictionary.
Also of note, the script is written for the actors to actually be able to read and at least be able to pronounce the words written from a laymen's perspective. This is most likely why the authors write what they want eight different ways. This is evident simply by looking at how the emphasis is written in the script, so yes, it is based on Okrand's words, but it is written phonetically because they author may wish to be accurate, but he has to do so be succinct. Should that distinction be made like you suggest? Perhaps. Should we strictly adhere to the bastardized script spellings based off of the original Okrand material? Maybe. Is it ever worth getting bent out of shape about over? No.
Finally, if you are really that emotionally affected by edits made on this wiki, in accordance to the way this wiki works, then maybe this isn't the place for you. The classic "MA response" to this can be found in the "notice" just before you click "save" which simply states: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here." The classic "real world" response is to simply walk away when you find yourself to emotionally invested in an ultimately irrelevant online collaboration about something that no sane person will ever put in the highlights reel at their own funeral.
Personally, the edits you just made look acceptable to me, but that really means little. --Alan del Beccio (talk) 17:03, March 23, 2017 (UTC)
I also don't see a problem with the changes(though Klingonteacher needs to lighten up a bit); though I would wonder if there is a better way to display them(so that there isn't a background note under every line), though I don't know what that might be. Again, though, the information seems OK to me. 31dot (talk) 17:11, March 23, 2017 (UTC)
I can't think of one either. --LauraCC (talk) 17:15, March 23, 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, Alan. I am familiar with the way awiki works, so I have no problem with edits being changed at all. It's just frustrating to see how the Klingon language is treated in this wiki, and from my point I just can not understand how they can be so stubbornly rejecting the Okrandian spelling which was definitely created FOR the actors, it was distributed exactly like this TO the actors, it just was not added to the script, because the Klingon phrases were translated a lot later after the script was written and distributed to the actors. As a proof, you can even see a very short glimpse of what Okrand had written and given to the actors in this screenshot seen in the documentary Credited as conlangers. You see I don't make that up. And as you see in the discussion few lines above, the Okrandian spelling is even used on the screen in Star Trek VI, while the script probably does not show those lines (I don't know)

To, me the situation, usually goes like this, using a symbolic word:

me: Picard said Qapla'.
MA: No, he said kap-LAH.
me: But it's spelled Qapla'!
MA: The script says "kap-LAH".
me: There is even an entry in wiktionary Wiktionary, why don't you accept that?!

It's like a movie script would show German words for English speakers: "He said GOO-tan tuck" and when somebody says, this is spelled "Guten Tag", then MA's policy would reject that. Yes, when one sees it like that, it's ridiculous, but that's the way it is. I accept that, but I keep fighting against it, because I am absolutely convinced that this needs to be changed at least in this one case. Rules keep changing, and it will be no loss if one day MA will accept Klingon spelling. At least we can be lucky they accept Okrand's spelling in the background information.

-- Klingonteacher (talk) 18:11, March 23, 2017 (UTC)

I guess the core issue here is that you see the Okrand spelling as something particularly official, while the way our resource policy is set up around the concept of canon makes it that for our purposes his dictionary is only one of a large number of reference works that exist, a secondary thing. But reference works can be cited in background notes, and given how authoritative Okrand is, these notes about the Okrand spelling are both ok and a great and useful idea. I hope it's meaningful as a step forward for you too. -- Capricorn (talk) 06:20, March 24, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, that is the core issue. And actually, I am glad that over the years, Okrand's spelling has found its way into the MA, because it has not always been the case. I remember a time when TKD was not listed in Reference works, and that way of spelling was not included in the pages.

What I am actually "fighting" for, is that this spelling may be accept as official and correct, even following the canon policy. I know it is a very thin proof, but there is a very slight evidence on which I keep holding: One of the books in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country is indeed entitled Okrand's Unabridged Klingon Dictionary (by the way, it's NOT visible on screen, but accepted as canon because it's visible in the props). This does not prove anything, but "Okrand" at least is accepted as a name for someone who knows about Klingon - even inside the ST universe. Next, in a message above, we see the Klingon words Dujvetlh 'oH nuq and nuqDaq ghoS. rIn which follow the refused "Okrandian spelling" written on screen. The same happened with Qo'noS, another word that came from TKD but has always been spelled as "Kronos" in all sources and scripts before Star Trek Into Darkness. So, at least these few phrases prove that the "Okrandian spelling" IS used on screen.

So my point is simply that on one hand, I agree we really do not know how captain Picard & Co. would write Klingon on their PADD, but yet we accept to display it in a very strange way some script writers decided to write it. For instance, the script for TNG: "Redemption" writes the same word ghoS once as Ghos, then on the same page ghoS and in the script of TNG: "Redemption II" as GhoS.

I'm sure that there are other words as well that script writers have spelled incorrectly, but MA decided to take the spelling, for instance, from Mike Okuda's book Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual. So why can't we just agree to one common spelling that has been "suggested" by the man who made up the entire language, so that repeating words are recognized to be the same? The above ghoS example was obviously taken out of this book.

Also note the line from the resource policy: "For example, names such as Livingston and Neural were not mentioned on-screen, but are derived from production sources."

Interesting to mention is that the script for the TNG episode "Sins of the father" has a note "See reference by Marc Okrand (provided separately)." (Well, yeah, okay, that only makes it count as a production reference work, okay.)

Actually, I'm not expecting any change right now. I just wanted to make my point clear. And I will keep adding the Okrandian spelling into the background information wherever possible.

-- Klingonteacher (talk) 09:45, March 24, 2017 (UTC)

In a sense, I think you're on the right, but I'm really not trying to have an opinion about this. In playing devil's advocate, this is ultimately something that is hard to accept because we're not dealing with a "real" language, so we can't approach it from the same perspective as we do with other things.
As I previously established, the script spellings are phonetic spellings devised by the writers based on the Klingon Dictionary, at least from the examples I've seen. Normally we dismiss the phoenetic spellings from the script "pronunciation guide" to background info, however, in this case, the script writer forgoes the "pronunciation guide" by placing the phoenetic spellings inline, as if that was the intended spelling of the dialog. Meanwhile, in reality, they are (mostly) consulting the Klingon Dictionary for the words they are choosing, just as if they would consult their own natural (English) vocabulary in using every other word written in the script.
So, it's not a matter of whether or not Okrand is being accepted, in as much as this being a case of, 'we have this approach on how we do things, and this topic doesn't really fit into that approach.' --Alan del Beccio (talk) 14:25, March 24, 2017 (UTC)
To follow up on my previous comment, the script for "The Way of the Warrior" states the following, right below the pronunciation guide: "Please note: All Klingon dialogue is spelled phonetically." --Alan del Beccio (talk) 14:50, December 11, 2017 (UTC)

Use in Discovery Edit

In countries where Star Trek: Discovery is on Netflix, official Klingon subtitles are available, and they all use the Okrand spelling. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 02:07, September 26, 2017 (UTC)

The Klingon language promotional material for Star Trek: Discovery uses Okrandian spelling. The very first words seen onscreen were Klingon pIqaD characters that map to that spelling. The inscription on the "coffin launch platform" on the Sarcophagus Ship uses those characters in the same way. I think it's clear that the transcription system for Klingon used in The Klingon Dictionary is confirmed as correct in on-screen Star Trek canon. --Qunchuy (talk) 18:53, October 10, 2017 (UTC)

That's great you add this, Qunchuy, but the problem with Memory Alpha folks is that the only accept what has been seen and used on Screen, in the show. They take it so strictly that there is NO evidence at all that the pIqaD phrase displaying the words [ʁoʂ.lɪʔ t͡ʃɑχ] really map the letters ghoSlI' chaH. Even though we can read the pIqaD letters seen on the Klingon raider panel in DIS: "Choose Your Pain", from the canon point of view, we do not know what they mean until somebody says "this letter is a P" and so on. It may sound silly, but that's their rules, and I have lost many frustrating discussions about this.
 
From the point of view of MA's canon policy, Marc Okrand is just some guy who wrote a book about Klingon, and the mapping for the pIqaD letters was created by a fan group named KLI. -- Klingonteacher (talk) 10:00, October 20, 2017 (UTC)