Talk:Khan Noonien Singh (alternate reality)/archive

Name

Just because his name is Khan does not mean he is the same from the Prime Reality. I see no reason to put Khan (Alternate Reality) Aside from showing he is just known as Khan and not Khan Noonien Singh. T-888 (talk) 08:53, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

There was a TV ad which showed the names of two characters - Khan and Kirk. Well, Kirk is a last name. What is Khan? If Khan is Khan Noonien Singh, his last name would be Singh. (This is according to Wikipedia, which states, "People belonging to the Sikh religion traditionally have the middle name or last name as "Singh" (meaning "Lion") for males and "Kaur" (meaning "Princess") for females." [1]) Singh is identified as a Sikh in Classic Trek. So, either the producers made a mistake, which is possible, or this is a person with the last name Khan, which makes him not Khan Noonien Singh.Throwback (talk) 03:17, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Since he was created before the split in the universes, and still found on the Botany Bay, Khan will have the same name in both of them. Maybe it's just easier to call him "Khan" for whatever reason(in-universe) or it's a personal preference. 31dot (talk) 09:15, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

While this may be true, it only works if Harrison is actually Khan Noonien Singh, and not merely pretending to be for any number of legitimate reasons. Aside from Prime Spock who assumes the Khan Quinto/Spock asks about is the same Khan PS is familar with, no one else calls him KNS, nor is any evidence produced that confirms his identity beyond a reasonable doubt. Given that Orci is on record that there is nothing in the film that prevents Harrison only pretending to be Khantrekmovie 26&23, assuming this character is KNS is premature. It should be reflected that Harrison claims to be KNS. I would go so far as to title the Alt Universe article just "Khan", since he is not positively identified as anything else in the film, and rewrite the entry to reflect how he was actually identified in the film.--76.90.247.216 15:56, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest the ALT universe Khan article only start with the events of the STID, and not include anything prior. I would vote for a link in the original Khan Noonien Singh article to jump to the ALT universe article (and vice versa) retitled just "Khan" given that it has not been established beyond a reasonable doubt that Harrison is actually Khan, especially given Orci's comments.--76.90.247.216 16:01, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Star Trek Into Darkness

moved from Talk:Khan Noonien Singh

It has been revealed that Khan is in Star Trek Into Darkness played by Benedict Cumberbatch. He reveals his real name is Khan, just Khan, same first name as this Khan, should this be noted anywhere? here is the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Into_Darkness T-888 (talk) 07:53, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

If you're asking if the other page should only be titled "Khan", I don't know, but there should be a link at the top of this page regardless. 31dot (talk) 11:54, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

I think since in the movie he just calls himself Khan, not Khan Noonien Singh. I think we should be cautious here. Matt Seay (talk) 14:34, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

Without spoiling the exact way it happens, it is clarified during the movie that "Khan" is the counterpart of the other universes "Khan Noonien Singh". -- Cid Highwind (talk) 15:10, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

While I haven't seen it, he also would have been created before the split in the realities, and thus have the same name. 31dot (talk) 15:24, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

I just don't get it, alternate reality or not, how does he go from being Indian, played by a Mexican Actor to being Indian played by a white British actor? I think that this is all a ruse for a third film but this is not the place for that kind of thing. Matt Seay (talk) 15:31, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not really convinced, either, but it's the way it is. :) -- Cid Highwind (talk) 15:57, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

I got the feeling (and it's just a feeling) that he was altered somehow. I'm not sure what was said or how I came to that conclusion, but that somehow stuck in my mind. --usscantabrian (talk) 02:59, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

I go with Khan's rather supremely ticked-off attitude towards Marcus / Starfleet the whole movie. He probably has a lot of issues with Marcus, physically deforming his superior looks would be item #45667 on "Khan's %$%# List", which apparently you do not want to be on or else he'll crush your head like a peanut.

Yeah, that is the way Abrams and crew wanted it. Cannot argue with the filmmakers. I still need to see the movie myself to get all the facts. But until then I will both be happy there is an alternate reality Khan and wonder why a white guy is playing him, no racism meant, but even though Ricardo Montelaban was Mexican, he look more like an person from India than Cumberbatch. Matt Seay (talk) 16:51, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, they mention in the film that he was given a new identity. I presume, they also altered his appearance, due to photo recognition technology. I could be wrong. Roger Murtaugh (talk) 07:54, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Removed category

I removed the category "USS Vengeance personnel" - it isn't stated that he actually served aboard this ship at any point. -- Cid Highwind (talk) 15:25, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

Copied text

The text containing information about Khans 20th century origins was lifted from Khan Noonien Singh. This should have been mentioned in the edit summary! Also, I'm not sure that duplicating that much text is necessary or sensible. Might be better to just reference the other article. --Cid Highwind (talk) 18:23, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

Concerning such "multiverse" articles, I suggest using a backstory template and have both Khan articles link to it. That way both can be maintained at once. Imagine someone makes a significant expansion/improvement here, while the original Khan is left with the older version. MoffRebus^{My Talk} 05:12, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Removed speculation

While not stated, it is logical to assume Khan underwent cosmetic surgery.

...because we don't speculate. --Cid Highwind (talk) 19:48, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

Considering we have an IP is insisting we note Khan "somehow" became English, I just hope the novelization mentions it so we can readd the note, unless Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof knew it was so obvious they didn't write it because Khan would've been given a new appearance in addition to a new name, completing the "John Harrison" cover, otherwise Kirk or a civilian in the street would be wondering "Why does that guy look so much like Khan Noonien Singh?" It'd be like being shown a serial killer looked exactly like Hitler or Stalin (hey, that'd make a funny parody). --Alientraveller (talk) 12:50, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I agree that Khan being physically altered makes a hell of a lot of sense, it isn't in the movie (maybe there's a mention of it in the novelization?) so shouldn't be in the article. But, honestly, that's the only way I can see it working. Marcus seems like kind of a jerk who would do that against Khan's will, and Khan as a black ops guy would be kind of useless if he was just walking around looking like Khan. Heck, Khan's line of "you should have let me sleep" implies quite a lot of rage. Marcus messed up his pretty, pretty face!

But even if some sort of explanation for the apparent new race of Khan appears in the novelisation, would that be admissible in our articles?
czechout ☎ ✍  16:13: Fri 17 May 2013

It could be mentioned as Apocrypha information, but not as in-universe information. 31dot (talk) 16:17, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Bob Orci posted on Trekmovie, re. Khan cosmetic alternation, "Interesting idea, could be." then said he couldn't confirm it because it isn't on screen. http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/15/sticky-star-trek-into-darkness-arrives-in-north-america-and-most-of-the-world-open-thread/#5098785 Comments 544 & 1090 & 1105. So that is, like, a thing! I think writer online comments are tossed into articles somewhere, check? Background info?

Screenwriter Roberto Orci acknowledged Khan "could" have undergone cosmetic surgery for his new identity. [2]

Orci also said in the same article (see comment #1348) he would talk formally about Khan's appearance onscreen in a week. Therefore, I think this is premature to include this speculation knowing an official position is forthcoming, and frankly Orci says a bunch of cryptic stuff in comments on Trekmovie that ultimately mean nothing, we can't be publishing every one of them. Therefore, I am removing it for now.--76.90.247.216 16:07, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

New Botany Bay Article

Should we add a Botany Bay (alternate reality article) or should we just add an attachment to original page saying "in an alternate reality, the botany bay was found by starfleet following the destruction of vulcan?" Jkirk8907 (talk) 22:06, May 11, 2013 (UTC) JKirk8907

A separate article could never be more than a short stub. In fact, the Botany Bay wasn't even mentioned by name if I recall correctly. So a mention in the existing article is probably enough. --Cid Highwind (talk) 22:18, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not named in the film. But, since it's firmly established that the STU is the same up to the point of Kirk's birth, then it's not an assumption to say that the Botany Bay is the same vehicle, right? I mean, there's no call for a separate Botany Bay (alternate reality), is there?
czechout ☎ ✍  16:16: Fri 17 May 2013

Is this Khan the same as the classic Khan?

In the classic episode "Space Seed", it is stated that under Khan's rule that there were no massacres. Khan envisioned a day when one man would rule over Earth, like Caesar over Rome. However, we are told in the latest film that he committed genocide against those he deemed genetically inferior and believed in the purity of the species, and was later branded as a war criminal. For me, this makes this Khan not the same as the classic Khan. So, is it right to copy-and-paste information from one to the other, when there is this major divergence?Throwback (talk) 18:30, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't what Khan said in Space Seed just propaganda? We know that the Eugenics Wars took place and that many died which would certainly contradict such a statement. 31dot (talk) 19:00, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Oh thank God, I thought you were going to ask why he's English (*cough*surgery*cough*). I had my own doubts about using information from Space Seed since it's all information given by people who aren't in the alternate reality. Historical records and accounts might differ and be less accurate or more accurate information might've been unearthed. For the record, a massacre is not the same as genocide: afterall, Khan might've enacted laws to render disabled people sterile or had them quietly terminated. --Alientraveller (talk) 19:03, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

There was a briefing about Khan, and it was in that briefing that we learned that Khan had committed no massacres. Khan wasn't alone in his estimation of his people. Kirk described them as Alexanders and Napoleons, and Marla McGivers associated them with Leif Ericson, Richard the Lionhearted, and Napoleon. These leaders named are not often associated with genocide; Alexander, Caesar, and Napoleon are remembered as great leaders who conquered large swaths of territory and imposed an uniform rule of law and governance over their territories. Khan is called a great leader in the episode "The Augments". Though it is true that not all massacres are genocidal, it is equally true that all genocides are massacres. In 2001, the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia determined that the Srebrenica massacre was an act of genocide. It seems that massacre is a common term, and genocide is a legal term with varying degrees of severity. [3] 31dot, there can be wars with large number of causalities in which there were no genocides. Our American Civil War resulted in the death of 600,000. I think it possible that Khan might have killed his political rivals; he was essentially a "petty dictator" who was known for being ruthless. Throwback (talk) 19:37, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Man, TOS could be so quaint. Alexander is despised by Iranians; Richard the Lionheart was a fundamentalist antisemite; and well, Napoleon, ok, he's my favourite historical villain due to his some of his progressive attitudes but he did kill a lot of people and is especially hated in Spain. --Alientraveller (talk) 19:46, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Genocide is often a judgement call based on who's making it (ask the Turks if they committed genocide against Armenians and they will violently deny it; the Armenians and most others violently say they did) My point is that if it was said that Khan committed genocide that needs to be stated; but it also needs to be stated that he didn't think so. 31dot (talk) 19:48, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't Khan who uttered the no massacre statement. It was Scotty during the briefing. (There were no massacres under his rule.) If Scott's statement was in error, Spock, who was in the room, would have corrected him. He didn't. When Khan spoke of his rule, in ST II, he described himself as a prince with power over millions. My point is that we have a character who went from 0 massacres to a character who committed genocide (a series of carefully orchestrated massacres designed to eliminate a select group of people). I have been reading Aristotle lately. I read both of his Ethics, and I am in the process of completing the Politics. So, I am a little more mindful of this change than I would normally be. Aristotle spoke of extremes separated by a middle. Classic Khan was at one extreme (no massacres) and New Khan was at the other extreme (genocide). There is no middle here. Now, in the episode "Space Seed", Spock does identify him as a criminal. However, the word criminal can cover a wide array of possibilities. It could cover, for instance, the taking over of a government (coup d'etat). This act is seen by some as a criminal action, and it is supported in the canon when we learn that these "super people" ...simultaneously seized power in over 40 nations." Throwback (talk) 21:51, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Bob Orci has admitted that there is nothing in the movie that prevents Harrison from being someone other than Khan, namely another augment from the Botany Bay.trekmovie #26 & 23 Considering the discrepancies in appearance, backstory and demeanor, it seems that this article assumes a great deal in positively identifying this character as Khan Noonien Singh, when he could in fact be another augment posing as Khan for any number of legitimate purposes. This should be mentioned in the article, in as much as it has been included the speculation and comment by Bob Orci that Khan could have also changed his identity.--76.90.247.216 15:48, May 18, 2013 (UTC)