Can anyone tell me who painted the portrait of Kahless that was featured in Rightful Heir? Thanks. --wa' DaHoHchugh chotwI' SoH, wa''uy' DaHoHchugh charghwI' SoH, Hoch DaHoHchugh Qun SoH. 02:19, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
Kahless v. Molor?Edit
So did Kahless kill the tyrant Molor, or did Molor put Kahless to death? There seems to be contradictory information in the article. Tfleming 00:46, 27 Dec 2005 (UTC)
- It's noted in the article that the legends, rightfully so, have contradictory info. Given the mythical nature of Kahless, it could be possible that Molor killed him, and then he returned from death to kill Molor and unite the Empire. It mentions he went to the underworld twice already in the article.--Tim Thomason 01:06, 27 Dec 2005 (UTC)
Tales of KahlessEdit
Alright, I am looking for a little "assistance" from the "pros". First off, I wanted to present the tales of Kahless, as they are presented, in the format indicating that they are, indeed, just tales and not established fact -- as is presented in the first paragraph. I want to do this, in part, to justify the various contradictions, conflicts and incomplete stories, but much more simply, that is what they are supposed to be -- tales -- and that is how I believe they should be presented. Anyway, I am looking for some opinions on how I have them presented, and some suggestions on how to perhaps, improve upon them.
Second, the date of the time Kahless lived seems to be in conflict as well. I wrote up the following explainations for keeping it at "approximately 1,500 years ago", should all or only part of what is written below be included at any point in the main article? Thanks in advance!
- There has been a rather loose interpretation of when Kahless lived throughout TNG and DS9. According to a cut scene in "Rightful Heir", Data gave Kahless's date of death 1547 years ago, or 822 CE (from 2369). However, it was also said in the same episode that the clerics have been on Borath (where Kahless was supposed to reappear) for 15 centuries, or since at least 869 CE. This date also coincides with the date later spoken by Data with regards to Kahless's death.
- The next date of reference for when Kahless lived is mentioned in "The Sword of Kahless", when Dax makes mention that based on computer analysis of the Shroud of Kahless, the results indicated that there are "traces of metallic compounds that could only have been left by a Klingon Bat'leth fourteen hundred years old" or dating from around 973 CE. It should also be noted that the Hur'q invaded Qo'noS "over a thousand years ago" which would be sometime around (or prior to) the 14th century.
- The largest discrepancy, however, is found in "Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places" where Worf tells the story of Kahless and Lukara, describing how it had taken place "a 1,000 years ago", again roughly mid-14th Century. This was also spoken before the establishment of the "year of Kahless 999", from "Soldiers of the Empire", which leaves it open to speculation if Worf was speaking in 1000 Klingon-years or Earth-years. If he was speaking in Klingon years, it seems odd that Worf would suddenly change to a Klingon-years time reference talking to non-Klingons, yet, when Koroth, the Klingon cleric of Borath, was talking to Worf, they were using a human-years time reference, in a conversation between Klingons, on a Klingon planet.
- The only thing that can be said for certain is that the High Clerics on Borath have been awaiting Kahless's return on Borath since the mid-9th Century, and is therefore the reasoning for how the time reference of "approximately 1,500 years ago" for the time Kahless has been established. --Gvsualan 23:40, 14 Dec 2004 (CET)
- Ooh, that's long. That said: I think we can disregard the 822 CE date because, as you said, it was cut from the final episode. That leaves us with references to 1500 years ago and 1400 years ago-- and it seems to me that it's most likely Kahless ran amok 1400 years ago, but in casual conversation this is rounded off to 1500. On the other hand-- maybe Jadzia's analysis has a margin of error of 100 years?
- As for the 1000 years ago, chalk it up to: 1) the universal translator in our TVs didn't convert the years this time 2) Worf was speaking somewhat metaphorically 3) Worf can't count. -- Steve 05:41, 15 Dec 2004 (CET)
Yeah, it is long, so for now people can read this, the only thing that needs to be mentioned is the cut line regarding his date of death and the YoK 999 reference. As for the cut-scene, there are those here that seem to take cut scenes as canon, such as to say that IKS Patakt is canon, et al, and if that is acceptable around here, then shouldn't the cut-scene date of 822 CE be canon? Do you see what I am saying? There is a double standard. --Alan 22:08, 17 Dec 2004 (CET)
This page could really use a TOS pic, at least to give credit to the actor. Tyrant 18:50, 21 Jan 2005 (CET)Tyrant
- That all depends on who can produce a copy to TOS S3 on DVD for the screencap -- and Robert Herron has credit given to him on the page. --Gvsualan 19:19, 21 Jan 2005 (CET)
I didn't say he didn't, I just thought a pic would be a nice credit to the actor, thought someone might have one, that's all. Tyrant 19:25, 21 Jan 2005 (CET)Tyrant
The calculation of 1.552 years is probably inaccurate, since the Year of Kahless may not refer to the date of his death. It may refer to his birth, or some other event. --Oshah 12:18, 23 Jul 2005 (UTC)
I think Kahless, as he's later developed, stands for principles that most people consider "good": honor, bravery, consideration of the needs of his people. Why, then, was he on the "evil" side of "The Savage Curtain"? Just because he was a Klingon? Or were there other reasons? --22.214.171.124 05:45, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)
- Also, it might be worth noting that it's practically impossible for him to be an augment-virus Klingon, since he lived and died long before contact with the Human augments. --126.96.36.199 05:46, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)
As far as his representation for "evil"...it would seem the Excalbians probably took all their information on what is good and what is evil from the minds of the Kirk and his crew. The Klingons were the enemy, period. I don't think it had anything to do with Kahless' reputation in the Empire. Additionally there shouldn't be any reference to the Klingon augment-virus associated with Kahless, as you need to remember that Kirk and crew knew nothing, as far as we know, of unaugmented Klingons. In fact, that would seem to confirm, or at least support, that the Excalibians got their information from Kirk and crew and did not have their facts checked though other intragalactic sources. --Gvsualan 06:03, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)
proper pronunciation Edit
requesting a lay person's plain pro-nun-see-ay-shun guide.
please and thanks! :)
- It's pronounced "Kay-less". Kay as in "okay" or just the letter "k"; less as in "Get more, pay less." --From Andoria with Love 06:23, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Stories of Kahless, canon or background? Edit
All this was removed with the comment " Removed stories that were in script but cut from final version of Birthright II and hence are not canon":
- ...Kahless held his father's lifeless body in his arms. He could not believe what his brother had done. Then his brother threw their father's sword into the sea, saying that if he could not possess it, neither would Kahless. That was the last time the brothers would speak. (TNG: "Birthright, Part II")
- Kahless looked into the ocean and wept, for the sword was all he had left of his father and the sea filled with his tears and flooded beyond the shore. The people begged Kahless to stop his weeping, and he did and walked into the water to find the lost sword. He searched and searched the murky ocean bottom, holding his breath for three days and three nights when he would eventually find his father's sword. (TNG: "Birthright, Part II")
- Kahless later invented the forms of what would become the Mok'bara when he went to the Underworld in search of his father. Kahless showed him the forms, and his father was able to remember his body and return to the world of the living. (TNG: "Birthright, Part II")
- Kahless was condemned to die by the tyrant Molor, who was angered that Kahless had incited the people against him. The night before his execution, Kahless asked that he be allowed to go out into the night and say farewell to the moon and the stars, for he knew that in the Netherworld, he would not see them again. Kahless gave his word that he would come back, and Molor let him go. Kahless had given his word and Molor understood what that meant. The next day at dawn, Kahless returned and was put to death. (TNG: "Birthright, Part II")
- This story is contradicted by "The Promise", indicating the degree of disparity that potentially exists in each of these stories told.
I don't know whether they're in the episode or not, or any episode. But if they're really in a script, would someone at least preserve them in the Background section? --TribbleFurSuit 01:48, 9 December 2008 (UTC)