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House of Mo'Kai Edit

Does anyone know where the House of Mo'Kai appears in? It's not mentioned anywhere else in Memory Alpha-Rebelstrike2005 21:07, 24 Feb 2005 (GMT)

Janeway mentioned the House of Mo'Kai in one of the Hirogen Holodeck simulations in "The Killing Game, Part 1". --James Cody 21:12, 24 Feb 2005 (GMT)

Since its a holodeck program there is no proof that it actually exists...Rebelstrike2005 21:15, 24 Feb 2005 (GMT)

It was still mentioned, and that's all that matters. --Alan del Beccio 07:18, 12 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Klingon Houses (vdf 8/6/05)Edit

"Klingon Houses" - Duplicate of preexisting article, see below. --Alan del Beccio 07:27, 1 Aug 2005 (UTC)

From "talk:Klingon Houses":
  • A complete list of Klingon houses already exists at Great House. -- rebelstrike 12:32, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
  • If I wanted a list of the houses I would not think to type in "Great House". I would type in "Klingon Houses". I know we have some feature where if you type one thing in, it redrects you to another article. (For example: Psychokinesis and telekinesis) We should use that here. Alot of times hwne people look for things on MA the article's title is diffrent from what they think it might be. -- <unsigned>
  • Redirected --Alan del Beccio 05:50, 5 Aug 2005 (UTC)

CanonEdit

Can anyone elaborate on the canonicity of any of these rank names and the organization described? -- El Payaso Malo 99.26.194.220 02:42, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

They're non-canon. There are several that exist here already but the others not listed are probably from books. — Morder (talk) 02:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I see. Is this canon? It seems to be that way, but I wasn't sure if the Klingons had the inherent racism toward conquered races described here. Thank you for your help. -- El Payaso Malo 99.38.143.34 20:37, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Please read this for help as to what constitutes canon. The quickest explanation is that if you saw/heard it on-screen, it's canon. — Morder (talk) 20:43, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

That is why I said it looked canon, because I have not seen anything on screen to contradict it, but I wasn't sure, as I don't have access to the entire franchise. I haven't even been able to see an entire episode of Deep Space Nine all the way through. -- El Payaso Malo 99.38.143.34 16:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Fictional houseEdit

Is this the correct spelling for the name from "The Killing Game"? K'toh-maag. --LauraCC (talk) 19:38, March 9, 2016 (UTC)

twenty-four great houses? Edit

  • "The rulers of the twenty-four most powerful Great Houses formed the Klingon High Council."

What is the source of that information? I can't seem to find reference to that in either Redemption or You Are Cordially Invited.--Tuskin38 (User talk:Tuskin38 21:06, September 11, 2017 (UTC)

I agree and removed it. --Alan del Beccio (talk) 22:08, September 11, 2017 (UTC)

Looking through the page's history, that fact has existed here since the page was originally created in 2004. Huh. --Tuskin38 (talk) 23:07, September 11, 2017 (UTC)

Heh. I think we inadvertently made canon with our false information. --Alan del Beccio (talk) 12:56, September 25, 2017 (UTC)
Actually, looks like the 24 houses bit comes from The Final Reflection, so while not canon before Discovery, they might have taken it from the book (as they have canonized other bits of it too), and not from here. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 15:51, September 26, 2017 (UTC)

"Named after eldest male" Edit

I removed that part, as it's unclear if they're actually always named after the head of the house; especially if Klingons are often named after their ancestors. E.g. the House of D'Ghor is called that in 2256 before the 24th D'Ghor, who might simply be named after the house's founder. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 22:31, September 25, 2017 (UTC)

1) Klingons reuse names, ex. Duras, Toral, Worf. There could easily have been a D'Ghor in 2256.
2) Gowron renames the House of Kozak to the "House of Quark" despite a Ferengi leading a House being unprecedented. This indicates that naming it for the current House leader is standard procedure. -- UncertainError (talk) 22:35, September 25, 2017 (UTC)

The case of the House of Kozak is a bit different since he had no male heir so perhaps the house had to be renamed because the bloodline was broken. And the House of D'Ghor in 2256 is actually led by Dennas, and the House of Mo'Kai by Ujilli. Not to mention Worf still calling his house the "House of Mogh". And the House of Duras was not renamed to House of Toral either (and there's no concrete proof that it was ever named after the 24th century Duras and not by his namesake ancestor).

It's a bit unclear in the TNG/DS9 era, so I think it's best not to state it outright. The House of D'Ghor and House of Kozak could just as well have been named after some 21st century D'Ghor and Kozak and it just happened that we saw their descendants who were named after their ancestors. I think it's best not to state outright that the house is named after the current leader. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 22:40, September 25, 2017 (UTC)

Agreed... if we don't know it, we don't state it (and we don't speculate on it). -- Renegade54 (talk) 16:57, September 26, 2017 (UTC)

Great House statusEdit

I recently made a provisional update to the listing:

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/index.php?title=Great_House&diff=2065754&oldid=2065603

There used to be just one list of "Great Houses". I split this into two, based on time period: "Active in the 23rd century" and "Active in the 24th century" - explicitly pointing out that the House of Martok was not considered a "Great House" in the 23rd century, they were poor soldiers, until General Martok became a self-made man through his exemplary military career.

Some of course, are being re-used in the new Discovery prequel era - explicitly the House of Kor. Great nod that they remember the classist friction between Kor and Martok, that Kol looks down on non-aristocrats. Though of course...wouldn't Kor himself be alive now? (shrug) Well, a "House" has a lot of members and cousins in it. Maybe Kol is Kor's father or uncle.

But this leads to several questions, which I hope we can present to the writers next time there's a Q&A (great that they actually check in with the wiki from time to time):

Is there a difference between being a "Great House" and "being on the High Council"?

Kol derides T'Kuvma for not having a seat on the High Council: does this mean that the House of T'Kuvma is in fact, a "Great House"? Or a lesser House?

Does the High Council consist of 24 representatives from each of the 24 Great Houses?

Or, are there only 7 or so seats on the High Council, and the 24 Great Houses compete for seats on it depending on their current political strength? (Thus there are internal tiers even within the Great Houses, depending on who has a High Council seat).

Are the 24 Great Houses the only "Houses"? That is, are lesser families considered "Houses" as a formality? Game of Thrones analogy: each of the Seven Kingdoms is ruled by one of the "Great Houses" like House Stark, who themselves rule over a dozen or so vassal Houses each, such as House Mormont who serve under the Starks. Star Wars did something similar when it recently reworked how the Mandalorian society is set up (explicitly comparing it to Game of Thrones as well) -- i.e. "House Vizsla" is a political unit controlling large territories, with "Clan Vizsla" as the top of the pyramid, and "Clan Wren" are vassals of "House Vizsla". Both are considered "Houses" or "Clans", but some are lesser than others. So in the 23rd century, would the poor soldiers of Martok's family technically be called "House Martok" just as in "oh, the Martok family"? One assumes there are intervening mid-ranked guys who are "minor lords" below the level of Great House.

We'll have to see.

Still, I think it was best to separate them into two time-era listings because at least some changed between 23rd and 24th centuries. And the distinction between "Great House" and "holding a seat on the High Council" is still confusing.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:14, September 26, 2017 (UTC)

Maybe it would be best to move this page to just "Klingon Houses" since we don't even know how many of the houses mentioned so far are considered to be great houses? E.g. the House of T'Kuvma was explicitly shown not to be a Great House at least initially, nor the House of Martok until his rise to power. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 22:55, September 26, 2017 (UTC)

Ah, it turns out (DS9: "Apocalypse Rising") said there were 24 members with seats on the High Council representing Great Houses during the DS9 era.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:01, September 26, 2017 (UTC)

When was it said? I checked a transcript of the episode and there's no mention of the number of houses on the council there. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 23:04, September 26, 2017 (UTC)

Ah, crud. Turns out this was already addressed farther up this very Talk page in the "Twenty four houses?" section. In the "Klingon Empire" page under the "government" section, it cites "Apocalypse Rising" for stating that there are 24 members on the High Council, one from each Great House. Apparently the episode itself didn't actually state that. Yet when the contributors above checked, that reference was present in the "Klingon Empire" article since it was created back in 2004 - stemming from non-canon info in a Star Trek novel.

So...we're back to square one.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:53, September 27, 2017 (UTC)

Well, it is canon now, at least for the 23rd century. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 01:57, September 27, 2017 (UTC)

Ack, I just carefully watched episode 3 again: Yes, they explicitly state that each of the 24 Great Houses has a seat on the High Council. Clarification I would enjoy: is the High Council the "High Council" because it was formed by 24 Great Houses? Or, is a House considered "Great" specifically because it holds a seat on the High Council? (That is, the terms are synonymous and ex officio). --The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:11, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

Removed Edit

I've removed the following info about the 24 Great Houses: "It is unknown if all of these remained active in the 24th century, or if some died out - or if new ones were formed during the interval," as well as a statement saying that whether the House of Martok "was considered one of the top-tier 'Great Houses' even at that time is unknown." I've deleted another comment too, which said, "It is also unclear how naming conventions function over many generations due to their use of personal names." These are all points we don't know and they consequently don't really add anything to the article. Simply put, we don't list unknowns. --Defiant (talk) 10:32, October 6, 2017 (UTC)

Look, there are known unknowns, and then there are unknown unknowns.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:09, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

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