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Talk:Elizabeth Dehner

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The article has a stardate as her birthdate that is linked to 2243, but also a note saying her birth year may be 2244. Which is it? Egan Loo 20:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Dehner's medical profile from the "computer display" in "Where No Man Has Gone Before".
Dehner profile stats


Dehner profile esp

esper profile

Isn't it odd that if she was 21 years old at the time of the examination that she was already a PH.D.? If that's true, she was definitely a gifted student. - Davisn456 02:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

What was her degree? Edit


I'm trying to improve the PhD article, and according to it, the only canon reference to someone holding a PhD was Elizabeth Dehner. I have seen almost none of TOS and had no idea who this person was. But according to her bio, she was a psychiatrist. Psychiatrists are full-fledged MDs and don't possess PhDs (unless it's in another field – this is different from psychologists, whose terminal degrees are PhDs.)

Because I have not seen this episode, I'm curious about whether it explicitly referred to her as a PhD, not an MD. If so, than it's a production gaffe (or by the 23rd century, for some reason psychiatrists no longer receive medical training. But I doubt that, for I've read McCoy was trained in psychiatry, which, again, is quite different from psychology.)

I hope I can get an answer here, but it appears this page has been neglected for three years. I might also try asking at the reference desk.

Regardless, we should (IMO) add a background note about the possible confusion of her having a "PhD in psychiatry". I don't believe it's a nitpick, for I'm genuinely confused about whether she was a psychiatrist without an MD or if she was really meant to have been a psychologist.

Thank you for your consideration.

Best, --Cepstrum (talk) 15:29, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

PS Oops. I've now seen the pic that clearly identifies her as having a PhD. What I can't figure out is if she was stated to be a psychiatrist or psychologist. (A screen cap does mention "vocational training in psychiatry", but that's unclear: one doesn't refer to 8--12 years of medical school and residency as "vocational training". To me it sounds more like she "dabbled" in some basic psychiatry to augment her actual career. I'd like to know if she was, in dialogue, referred to chiefly as a "psychiatrist". So my question still stands. :)

How is it a gaffe?  She could be a psychiatrist that had previously done a PhD in something else undisclosed. All we know for certain is that she is a psychiatrist and has a PhD.  Nothing more.  We cannot speculate as to what is going on without being given more information. -- sulfur 15:49, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
As for being specifically stated as a psychiatrist, we have the following:
DEHNER: "Psychiatry, Captain. My assignment is to study crew reaction in emergency conditions."
as well as:
KIRK: "Doctor Dehner feels he isn't that dangerous. What makes you right and a trained psychiatrist wrong?"
So yes, she was stated to be a psychiatrist. As Sulfur pointed out, being a psychiatrist does not preclude one from also having a PhD, though normally they would state both in the profile (something like "Dehner, MD, PhD"). --OuroborosCobra talk 16:16, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
Note:  Her specific PhD was never stated.  So, all we know is that she specializes in "psychiatry" and has a PhD.  Nothing more. -- sulfur 16:18, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
I can't agree with you on that, Sulfur. Kirk specifically calls her a "trained psychiatrist," not a "specialist in psychiatry" or something similar. --OuroborosCobra talk 16:20, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
As noted above, a Psychiatrist has an MD (in the "real world" that is), so we don't know if her PhD is in that or something else entirely. -- sulfur 16:22, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
Correct, and we also don't know whether in the Trek universe and by the 23rd century if it is common for "psychiatrists" to possess PhDs rather than MDs. What we do know, however, is that she is a "trained psychiatrist" (not just "someone specializing in psychiatry," as you suggested), and that she has a PhD, and that we have no evidence of an MD. --OuroborosCobra talk 16:30, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, guys. So it was stated in dialogue she was a psychiatrist. And yes, I know of MDs who have PhDs as well (and vice-versa – usually one is in the main subject of focus. For example, it's helpful in my field of electrical engineering specializing in biomedical applications to get an MD, too.). I agree it could also be the case that psychiatry, by the 23rd century, is divorced from medicine and more like today's psychology.

But that makes me wonder: why is she in the category of "medical practioners" if we have no reference at all to her being an MD?

Thanks, and best regards!

--Cepstrum (talk) 15:50, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

PS On second thought, shouldn't we remove her from the "medical practioners" category sooner rather than later? Don't worry: I certainly won't do anything but raise this issue. :) --Cepstrum (talk) 15:59, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

PPS I said above I wouldn't do this, but I removed her from the "medical practioners" category. No canon source (AFAIK) states she practiced medicine or had an MD (even though present-day psychiatrists are medical practioners with MDs; they just specialize in psychiatry. Sorry for reneging. Please revert if necessary (though I'd appreciate an explanatory note :)). --Cepstrum (talk) 16:45, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Removed Edit

While not typical, many scientists and clinicians hold doctorates in both medicine and a related field, such as biomedical engineering – which makes Dehner's file, listing she had a PhD, neither inconsistent with real-world conditions nor necessarily a production gaffe. It is unknown in what field Dr. Dehner earned a PhD.

A person who is trained as a psychiatrist can earned a PhD. The difference between the two is that a person who earns the PhD, but not the MD, does not have clinical training. See here - Psychiatry|Future Students - McGill University McGill University " a public research university in Montreal, Canada, officially founded by royal charter in 1821." [1]Lakenheath72 (talk) 09:33, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

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