Talk: Dilithium

Element or molecule?

Was dilithium ever definitely stated to be an element? It would be a lot easier to just call it a substance. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davok (talk • contribs).

An element means a single atom, a molecule is a substance formed from more than one atom. If a "particle" of dilithium is made from 2(5)6 dilithlum 2(:)l diallosilicate 1:9:1 heptoferranide then it is not an element, it is a molecule, because it contains more than one atom (and the atoms are from more than one element, for that matter). – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.178.51.68.

Well, for that matter, where did 2(5)6 dilithlum 2(:)l diallosilicate 1:9:1 heptoferranide come from? Does anybody have a canon reference? From VOY: "Threshold" I got the impression that dilithium was an element; whereas the name itself suggests a molecule. — THOR 17:51, 14 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Dilitihum was listed as an element in the periodic table chart seen in "rascals." this was background only, but it is still possible that crystallized dilithium is a molecule made up of dilithium in a lattice structure with other elements (iron and silicon seem to be indicated by that formula)

Is that a crystal formula, and does it even have a canon source? -- Captain Mike K. Bartel^talk

I found the source. The formula is from the 1995 book The physics of Star Trek by NASA physicist Lawrence Krauss. It is not a canon source. For more information visit this article. —Shawn81 07:40, 25 Aug 2005 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia a crystal is simply, "A crystal is a solid in which the constituent atoms, molecules, or ions are packed in a regularly ordered, repeating pattern extending in all three spatial dimensions.". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal --TOSrules 05:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Moved from page: "Dilithium formula : Li2Te". What's the source of this? Moved it here, cause it sounds like someone took lithium and put a 2 on it. -AJHalliwell 02:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... That formula would imply that "dilithium" is short for dilithium telluride (Li₂Te). The formula would be reasonable, as tellurium has a valence of two; lithium, having a valence of one, would bond to it in pairs. —Shawn81 07:28, 25 Aug 2005 (UTC)

2(5)6 dilithlum 2(:)l diallosilicate 1:9:1 heptoferranide, I remember seeing something similar to this in the Star Trek TNG technical manual. Wish I still had one lying around... anyway the point of a fictional formula like this is to tell readers that dilithium crystals in star trek are not simple crystals made of lithium atoms. They are made of various fictional substances in some kind of organization and proportion. The individual atoms should all be on the real periodic table, but the crystal structure and embedded molecules are all fictional. Apart from the comment that dilithium is on the periodic table in "Rascals"(TNG), I would say the dilithium is not an element or a molecule, it is a crystaline substance with more than just lithium. 70.177.40.139 23:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual - THE ROLE OF DILITHIUM - PAGE 60. --152.163.100.8 04:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Which still makes in non-canon. Away it goes. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 21:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

And that can't be mentioned in the background, coming from a valid reference, because...? --Alan 05:01, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed info

In February 2006 a group of Engineers at the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute used two oppositely charged centimeter-sized lithium tantalate crystals, commonly called a "dilithium crystal" in many press reports, as a key element in creating a desktop sized fusion device that operates at room temperature.

While the above background info is interesting, I'm not sure how it relates to the dilithium of the main article, aside from the apparent fact that several press reports called it dilithium. I don't think that's enough to qualify it as background info, since it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the dilithium described in the article. --From Andoria with Love 04:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Dilithium mentioned in Minerology Database

webmineral.com has a page about Dilithium

in which they state:

Chemical Formula:	Li2Te
Composition:	Molecular Weight = 141.48 gm
	 Lithium     9.81 %  Li
	 Tellurium  90.19 %  Te
	           ______ 
	           100.00 % 
Empirical Formula:	Li2Te
Environment:	Silica-poor planetesimals which did not undergo significant parent-body metamorphism during formation.
IMA Status:	Not Approved IMA
Locality:	Interplanetary asteroids. Link to MinDat.org Location Data.
Name Origin:	Named after it's composition.
Synonym:	Go Juice
		Warp Factor 9

– The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.218.155.57.

Seeing as Dilithium is described as an element in Trek separate and not related to Lithium, and therefore not a compound or mineral of Lithium, that information is fanon. --OuroborosCobra ^talk 19:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The Quartz angle

I can't remember which of the Star Trek novels (I believe its a TOS novel -- How Much for Just the Planet perhaps -- but I'm not sure) mentioned the history of dilithium, but it discussed amoung other things that dilithium's quartz-like appearance was because it was indistinguishable from quartz in 4-dimensional spacetime (3-D space) but not in 5-D spacetime. It refers to earth "quartz" being found to be some fraction of dilithium (15% perhaps? I read this years ago). If anybody knows which novel this is and the specifics of the history, it might be worth an Apocryptia subsection in the article. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.148.61.66.

Background info is not true

However, lithium, being a metal, should not be able to exist in this state, as metals cannot form diatomic molecules.

It's not true. Source: wikipedia. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.25.148.242.

Theoretical information on Dilithium

THE ROLE OF DILITHIUM
The key element in the efficient use of M/A reactions is the dilithium crystal. This is the only material known to Federation Science to be non-reactive with antimatter when subjected to a high-frequency electromagnetic (EM) field in the Megawatt range, rendering it "porous" to antihydrogen. Dilithium permits the antihydrogen to pass directly through its crystalline structure without actually touching it, owing to the field dynamo effect created in the added iron atoms. The longer form of the crystal name is the forced-matrix formula 2<5>6 Dilithium 2<:> 1 diallo silicate 1:9:1 heptoferranide.
This highly complex atomic structure is based on simpler forms discovered in naturally occurring geological layers of certain planetary systems. It was for many years deemed irreproducible by known or predicted vapor-deposition methods, until breakthroughs in nuclear epitaxy (SEE: nuclear epitaxy and epitaxy) and antieutectics (SEE: eutectics and antieutectics) allowed the formation of pure, synthesized Dilithium for starship and conventional power plant use, through theta-matrix compositing techniques utilizing gamma radiation bombardment.

(Dilithium formula: 2<5>6 Dilithium 2<:> 1 diallosilicate = 2 is less than 5 is greater than 6 Dilithium 2 is less than such that is greater than 1 diallosilicate 1 to 9 to 1 heptoferranide.)

See also: catalyst and control rod

According to Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual - pgs. 61, "...the normal operating temperature at the reaction site is $2x10^{12}K$ ."

However, in the book:
SCHAUM'S SOLVED PROBLEMS SERIES
3000 SOLVED PROBLEMS IN PHYSICS No. 20.54, it states the following:
A nuclear fusion reaction will occur in a gas of deuterium when the nuclei have an average kinetic energy of at least 0.72 MeV. What is the temperature required for nuclear fusion to occur with deuterium? ( $1eV=1.6x10^{-19}J.$ ) Answer: $5.57x10^{09}K$

$2,000,000,000,000 = 2.00x10^{12}K$
$0,005,570,000,000 = 5.57x10^{09}K$
$1,994,430,000,000$

Therefore, the Dilithium crystal itself must be able to withstand an operating temperature of 5,570,000,000 Kelvin or 10,025,999,540.33 degrees Fahrenheit.
--64.12.116.130 09:52, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

This is nice, but it is all original research which is not appropriate for the article.--31dot 10:58, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

31dot, that original research has been there since 18:08, January 5, 2008 205.188.117.5. The latest update was today. --205.188.116.130 20:32, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

That changes nothing. Just because it has been here doesn't mean it's correct.--31dot 20:47, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

I also was pointing out that it is inappropriate for the article, not this page.--31dot 20:49, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Fairly inappropriate for this as well since this is a talk page about improving the article and not where people can put their ideas willy-nilly about star trek. — Morder (talk) 21:28, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

I added a mention of the four dimensional structure of the crystal referenced to Shatner's novel Preserver. But this is non-canon, so I'm not sure it should go in the article section itself which is from an in-universe POV. Preserver also mentions Halkan having large dilithium deposits, which I believe is mentioned in canon TNG - something about two supernova shock waves interacting. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.9.142.188.

It's fine to add such information in an "Apocrypha" section but not in the main article itself as we only deal with canon information on MA. Plus, just a little tip, we don't have templates for novels just episodes. Simply link to a novel article by using a standard link. Also, if you could rememeber to sign your posts using ~~~~, that way we can keep track of who's talking. Thanks! :) --| TrekFan ^{Open a channel} 00:23, March 15, 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the fusion reaction of deuterium, it is important to note that this is the reaction of deuterium and its anti matter counterpart, not a fusion reaction of just deuterium. --Bailbondsman (talk) 01:38, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Dimensions for Dilithium Crystal

According ton my Next Generation Technical Manual, the Galaxy Class uses 1200 cubic centimeters of that stuff. Unless I am doing my math wrong, that seems very big for what we have seen on screen. Could anybody figure out what 1200 cubic centimeters of dilithium crystal would look like? --64.12.116.209 06:46, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

1200^(1/3)=10.62 - means that a volume of 1200cm^3 corresponds to a cube with side lengths of about 10.62cm (that's a little more than 4 inches). The naturally shaped crystal that is shown at the top of the article seems to fit that description. -- Cid Highwind 09:35, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

I found an on line scientific calculator that gave me 10.62658569182611cm when I put in

\sqrt[3]{1200cm}

Thanks again for the assist. 10.62658569182611 centimeters is equal to 4.18 inches. --205.188.116.209 03:55, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

Lithium oxide (Dilithium oxide)?

Is there anything to suggest that dilithium might not just be a phrase meaning lithium oxide? Lithium oxide has a formula of Li₂O and it is what you'd expect lithium to form in an oxygen environment in the absence of water. Lithium is the lightest solid element and also has the best paramagnetism-to-mass ratio of all the elements.[1] Hydrogen, the most likely element for plasma generation, by contrast is diamagnetic, and therefore repelled by magnets.[2] Oxygen is also paramagnetic, therefore if the matter and antimatter plasma streams were magnetically charged, they wouldn't come together without a paramagnetic or ferromagnetic layer to bring them together.

Not that the authors thought about this, but speculation is the realm of the possible.--Ipatrol 19:17, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Some interesting thoughts, but talk pages are not for mere speculation, unless you are proposing an addition or other change to the article.--31dot 21:21, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Regulator or Energy Source?

This article states the following,"It was used to power the warp drive systems of many starships. Dilithium regulated the matter/antimatter reaction in a ship's warp core because of its ability to be rendered porous to light-element antimatter when exposed to high temperatures and electro-magnetic pressures". So does it regulate the matter/antimatter reaction or is it a power source? Doesn't the dilithium just regulate the reaction much like control rods in a nuclear reaction as well as convert the energy into a plasma stream while the deuterium and the anti-deuterium actually provide the energy? --Bailbondsman (talk) 22:57, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Pre-Federation Earth's Dilithium supply?

The article does not state where Pre-Federation Earth obtained it's dilithium. Is it in the Star Trek canon somewhere? --Bailbondsman (talk) 23:31, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense

Much of this article is complete nonsense. Dilithium was NEVER intended to be its own element. The "Dt" element on the poster in Rascals was a joke; it is no more canon than the capsule signs with quotes from Buckaroo Bonzai. Dilithium is a real substance (Li₂); a homonuclear diatomic gas consisting of two lithium atoms, which, under the right circumstances, could theoretically be crystallized and used to channel energy. The dilithium referred to in Trek IS Li₂ (the dilithium we know of IRL), and this is well-established in canon. Indeed, it was referred to as "lithium" in some TOS episodes (homonuclear diatomic molecules are often referred to by their elemental names in chemistry). In addition, TNG, VOY, and GEN established that trilithium is a byproduct of warp reactions, which is completely impossible if "dilithium" is its own element. In short, much of this article is based on non-canon material, and a background sign that was intended as a joke. It should be entirely rewritten. 99.67.62.180 07:39, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you read the content and resource policies before throwing around the word "canon" here. - Archduk 3 07:59, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. The article is quite correct. 31dot (talk) 12:43, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

Implying that I am not familiar with the content and resource policies is patronizing and in no way contributes to the discussion. I am well aware of those policies. In truth, the resource policy is quite clear: spoken dialog trumps visual materials when there is a conflict. Since spoken dialog confirms that dilithium is a form of lithium, and not, in fact, a separate element, it would be quite bizarre to suggest that one joke sign in the background of a TNG episode trumps that. 99.67.62.180 22:00, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

Edit to my above comment -- Looking around, I note that your policy IS to include the background joke signage as canon (i.e., the Discussion page at Periodic Table), no matter how ludicrous. Oh well. Still doesn't change the fact that spoken dialog trumps visual materials in this case. 99.67.62.180 22:14, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

You probably would have received a more friendly response if you hadn't set the tone of this discussion the way you did with your first sentence. That said, if there is "spoken dialog confirm[ing] that dilithium is a form of lithium" (and not just separate references to both lithium and dilithium), please provide that and I'm sure we can work out something regarding this article. -- Cid Highwind (talk) 22:27, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

I understand you guys' policy to include EVERYTHING visible as canon, no matter how ludicrous (i.e., daffyduckium). As long as it doesn't violate established canon, it's not hurting anyone, so no harm no foul. The problem is that, in this case, dilithium is such an inherent part of the Trekverse. You are basing THE definitive article about dilithium on something that was never, ever, EVER intended to be seen on screen -- something which completely contradicts the writers' and producers' intentions, as well as spoken dialog (not to mention the laws of physics). This Memory Alpha article is considered gospel by a lot of people -- including Wikipedia, which cites it in its article about dilithium. In this particular case, I suggest that you have an obligation both to Trek fans and non-Trek folks alike to reevaluate your "joke signage" policy and thus improve the accuracy of this article. As for the spoken dialog -- it's been established in dialog that trilithium is a by-product of chemical reactions involving dilithium. Thus they are the same element. 99.67.62.180 22:31, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how one logically follows from the other. While indeed it would be reasonable to assume that all forms of *lithium are related a priori, we can't (and/or shouldn't) uphold that given the fact that dilithium is being described as rare and available on a few planets only. If, as the Wikipedia article states, about 1% of lithium exists as a 2-atom molecule in the vapor phase, and if this gaseous dilithium could be condensed (somehow?) into the crystalline dilithium we all know and love, it wouldn't exactly be that rare, would it? Also, again, please find us the spoken dialog that is being contradicting by not stating that lithium and dilithium are one and the same. -- Cid Highwind (talk) 22:43, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion. Homonuclear diatomic lithium ("dilithium" -- Li₂) exists on Earth as a rare gas. It is entirely chemically and physically possible for it to exist in crystallized form under JUST the right conditions on other planets, though it would be quite rare (this is why it was chosen in TOS, in fact, if you read Roddenberry's memos). As for the spoken dialog... there is no dialog that explicitly states that "lithium" and "dilithum" are the same element; but in TOS it IS explicitly stated that the ship needs crystals from a "lithium cracking station," and in later episodes this is specified as "dilithium." Unless the Enterprise used "lithium" crystals (impossible -- no such thing) for a while, then switched to "dilithium" -- but again, this is not physically possible. I suggest that we indeed DO have to take the laws of physics and chemistry into account here. The chemical prefixes di- and tri- are ONLY used to denote homonuclear polyatomic elements. In addition, it is physically impossible for "dilithium" to be "an element with an atomic number of 87 (indeed, if that were the case, it would be identical to francium). Again, my whole point is that this article is an example of the "everything on screen, even joke-signage, is canon" policy being taken to a ridiculous extreme and doing far more harm than good. A little bit of common sense needs to apply here. 99.67.62.180 22:53, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

Apparently, "lithium crystals" were explicitly mentioned several times, according to the article Lithium, and not just implied be the fact that they got "crystals from a lithium facility" (in which case this could indeed refer to any *lithium). So, even if impossible for one reason or another, we will have to accept that lithium crystals are a thing in the Trek universe.

That aside, I personally understand your concerns in regards to taking some production jokes far too serious, but where do you think we should draw the line instead? If we ignore "atomic Dilithium", what other computer screen information would be up for discussion again, because it was equally visible? Should we delete all of that, or what other objective way of deciding is there?

Also, even if we assume that "atomic Dilithium" was a bad joke not meant to become visible at all, there's still the fact that other production sources (TNG technical manual, to be exact) believed Dilithium crystals to not be crystals made of pure 2-atomic dilithium - but, apparently, some other complex compound which might or might not include this type of dilithium. -- Cid Highwind (talk) 23:16, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

"Lithium crystals" are absolutely a thing in the Trek universe. That's what "dilithium" IS. In chemistry, homonuclear diatomic elements are often referred to by their elemental names. For example, we often refer to dioxygen (O₂) as simply "oxygen." Dilithium (Li₂) can be referred to as simply "lithium" (because it is indeed a form of lithium). This is the only logical explanation for why the Enterprise is sometimes said to use "lithium" crystals, and sometimes said to use "dilithium" crystals -- because they are, in fact, the same thing in chemistry (indeed, lithium could not be crystallized unless it was in dilithium form). It also is the reason why dilithium reactions produce trilithium (Li₃) as a by-product. As for your question about where we "draw the line," I think a it's simply a matter of common sense. Obviously no one's going to agree on everything, but I think everyone (except totally unreasonable people) would agree that a graphic which includes references to Daffy Duck and the Three Stooges was not intended to be serious. (As for the TNG technical manual, I didn't think that books were considered canon on Memory Alpha.) 99.67.62.180 23:29, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

To sum up my position -- and then I'll shut up about it :) -- In order to accept dilithium as its own element, we must a.) disregard the laws of chemistry, b.) disregard the laws of physics, c.) disregard the common-sense-Occams-Razor explanation that dilithium is a form of lithium, and d.) disregard the writers' intentions... and instead rely solely on a background graphic that includes references to Daffy Duck and Curly. This, as I said, is when the "everything-visible-is-canon" policy becomes patently ridiculous. 99.67.62.180 23:38, December 21, 2013 (UTC)