Commodore in novelsEdit
First of all: Hi everyone :-) I think this rank hasn't been completely deprecated since there is a Commodore Korgan in the novels "A Time to Be Born" and "A Time to Die". Should novels be considered here? -- ZeroK 22:22, 9 Jul 2005 (UTC)
no--Noahmj 22:24, 9 Jul 2005 (UTC)
And the term Commodore hasn't been used onscreen since the original series, and maybe a movie or two. (This is of coarse excluding Maxwell Forrests brief appearence as a Commodore in "First Flight" on Enterprise. Which would still take place prior to the 24th century) - AJHalliwell 22:33, 9 Jul 2005 (UTC)
Thanks :-) Sorry, must have missed this point of the policy. Although I think expanding the database with the novels would be quite an interesting project (esp. considering the relaunch novels of DS9 and the Titan series :-) ) ZeroK 22:57, 9 Jul 2005 (UTC)
Saying that Commodore has changed to Rear Admiral - Lower Half is an assumption, not a fact. Just because the US Navy did this doesn't mean Starfleet must comply. Starfleet is a completely separate organization from the US Navy, and it's rank system is not 100% based on the US Navy's. In the first season of TNG, two admirals are wearing the commodore rank. Sure they are referred to as admiral, but that's just like referring to a Lieutenant Commander is simply Commander.
^^^ Indeed - for all you know the 23rd-century SF had the two rear admiral ranks PLUS the commodore's rank (not to mention "Fleet Captain"). 188.8.131.52 18:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It is also possible that Starfleet uses the rank of 'Commodore Admiral' from TNG onward, which the US Navy used for a year sometime in the 1980s I think. That way, a 1-pin flag officer could be refered to either as 'Commodore' or 'Admiral'. Just a theory. --Mada101 15:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Removed info Edit
- It [the rank of commodore] also is used as a courtesy title for a person with the rank of captain when travelling on a ship not his own so as to avoid confusion over who is the ship's captain.
- It is indeed a naval tradition. I think it would be ok to insert that piece of trivia in the background section -- Ⓚⓞⓑⓘ 14:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Notable novel? Edit
I removed this passage:
In the novel Before Dishonour, Captain Mackenzie Calhoun informs Captain Picard that since he was in command of a group of starships it would be proper for him to be referred to as Commodore Picard rather than Captain Picard.
becuase I fail to see what makes this single novel notable compared to the hundreds of others where Commodore is mentioned. TNG Commodores are mentioned in at least five pocket books that I know about, including Commodore Data who appears in Imzadi.
The above passage was restored, but either we should put them all in...or we put none of them in. Thats what I think. -FC 02:00, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- I rephrased the note to make the notability a bit more clear. Now, Before Dishonor is cited as an example to show the continued use of the Commodore rank into the 24th century in novels, which is a relevant point to have in the article.– Cleanse 02:09, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- Exactly why I put it back after you removed it, FC. The TNG era in canon is completely absent of commodores, that novel (and any others) make clear that in apocrypha it is still in use. That it is one or five novels doesn't make that point less notable. --OuroborosCobra talk 02:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I assuming then we can mention other novels? -FC 02:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- There's no reason why not. :-) But of course, common sense-wise, it shouldn't overwhelm the article. Anything more than a paragraph or so would be better placed at Memory Beta. In my opinion, we should just note the references where it was actually something noteable. e.g. canon character becoming commodore like the Before Dishonor ref, or where there is a discussion of the rank.– Cleanse 02:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Do we need to? If the point just to demonstrate use, we can name one novel and add "as well as others" or something. There is no need to name them all, or keep adding to the list as new novels come out. The purpose of the note is not a list of novels where the rank was used, only to establish use in that period at all. --OuroborosCobra talk 02:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- Which is the general gist of what I meant - it's not meant to be a list, but rather a few notable uses. Two or three refs is hardly overwhelming, and about the same level of detail as we have in other apoc sections.– Cleanse 02:51, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Imzadi should probably get some kind of mention since Data (a major character) is a Commodore. No need for an entire list of every Pocket book or comic book, that is true. -FC 03:08, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Commodores command ships besides there own Edit
The historical use in many navies, including the US and Royal Navies, use the Commodore title as a honorific for Captains that have command of multiple ships. Some of that is mentioned at wikipedia:Commodore (rank). Another example is the novel series which inspired Star Trek…Horatio Hornblower. In one book, Hornblower becomes Commodore First Class or Captain with a Captain under him. Unfortunately, the background section of this article doesn't really describe that part. Will (Talk - contribs) 09:17, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
- That's why we link to the Wikipedia article. We only put background info directly related to Star Trek. The history of the rank isn't relevant unless it was discussed by production/writing staff.(which, it may have been, but we need evidence)--31dot 11:20, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
Recent evidence from wardrobe directions Edit
Doug Drexler this month released some photographs from the TNG set, appearing to be 5th season or later by virtue of a reference to Ensign Ro. In it there's a set of ranks with insignia, notes for the wardrobe team intended to ensure the correct rank pips being put on uniforms. The rank of Commodore is mentioned specifically on the wbm.
It would seem to suggest that the Commodore rank never appeared purely by coincidence or maybe having the rank immediately above Picard/Sisko appear would detract from the feeling that the Captain was making independent decisions. Would seem the presumption that the rank was discontinued is not really justified.
CrazyGreggy 13:36, February 13, 2011 (UTC)CrazyGreggy
This article is total head-canonEdit
Unfortunately this article is an example of MA editors gone awry. There is NO - zero, zilch - canon evidence that "commodore" means anything different in TREK than it does in the modern Navy. It was eliminated as a rank in 1947 (FFS!!!) and since then has been used as a title/position (much like "yeoman" or "fleet captain"). It's a title given to certain captains who show exemplary command achievements, yet who are not yet ready to be promoted to one-star admiral. Commodores are captains by rank; captains who get to "fly the pennant" and are TREATED as if they're flag officers (admirals). Though "commodores" are TECHNICALLY still captains by rank, they are always addressed as "commodore." That's how it's been for 60 years, including during the time TOS was produced.
And there is absolutely NO evidence in ANY canon Trek incarnation - TOS, films, or TNG - that Starfleet is any different.
C'mon people. Commodore is a title, like Fleet Captain. It is not now, nor has it ever been, a "rank" in Starfleet. Unless someone can come up with proof that it IS a Starfleet rank, per MA's terms of services this article MUST be changed to reflect ACTUAL canon.
This article needs cleanup, and clear heads. 184.108.40.206 08:48, April 9, 2016 (UTC)
- Someone needs to calm down. If it's not a rank, why did it have its own rank insignia? 31dot (talk) 09:57, April 9, 2016 (UTC)
- Because as the OP said, captains in the Navy who hold "commodore billets" are are treated as HONORARY flag officers and get the admiral's pennant, to differentiate them from captains who are NOT commodores. I agree it is confusing, but that doesn't make it untrue. S/he is absolutely correct; it is not a rank. 220.127.116.11 19:13, April 10, 2016 (UTC)
- Where in Star Trek canon was it said that Starfleet's rank structure is exactly that of the US Navy or any navy? 31dot (talk) 01:47, April 11, 2016 (UTC)
- Where in Star Trek canon was it said that commodore is a "rank"? Occam's Razor applies. This article hinges upon the assumption that the term "commodore," alone among all Starfleet "ranks," is treated differently in Trek than it is in the modern Navy. That the term "commodore" - and ONLY "commodore" - is the single rank in Starfleet that is different from the modern Navy and has for some reason been "added" between captain and one-star admiral. That's QUITE an assumption to build an article upon. 18.104.22.168 09:41, April 11, 2016 (UTC)
- The point is that we go with what we are presented with in canon and in canon there is nothing to suggest it is anything other than a rank. I'm not sure why people are coming out of the woodwork now to oppose an article that has existed for almost 12 years without a problem. 31dot (talk) 11:42, April 11, 2016 (UTC)
- The point is that you are doing anything BUT "going with what we are presented in canon." In canon there is nothing to suggest that it means anything other than what it means IRL. Common sense says that when there is zero canon evidence either way, you should go with what the term means IRL. But so be it. Do as you please. :) 22.214.171.124 07:27, April 13, 2016 (UTC)