CPO: O'Brien insignia - DS9Edit
The rank insignia on O'Brien's collar in the DS9 episode "Hippocratic Oath" (clearly visible in the last scene as him and Bashir are talking) doesn't resemble anything on this page. Is there something not covered here that I'm missing? - Ugliness Man 11:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC) I did a bit of poking around, and I found the insignia; it's on the general page for Starfleet ranks, and can be seen here, but I'm no good at adding new information and images in tables - I always garble the code and make the page ugly as hell, so I'll leave that task to someone more experienced. - Ugliness Man 11:35, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
- The reason O'Brien's "Hippocratic Oath" insignia isn't shown here is because this isn't the rank he held in that episode. He clearly identified himself as "senior chief" in that episode. -- Captain M.K.B. 21:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- since the "2370s CPO" insignia was never seen on screen, i'm not sure it should be included. only O'Brien's "senior chief" was actually shown. -- Captain M.K.B. 21:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps in a separate table we could use the other Starfleet ranks insignia. Just to reinforce the fact that it is conjecture. -- Captain M.K.B. 16:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
CPO: O'Brien insignia - TNGEdit
[image removed] Um, this looks like the standard insignia for a Lieutenant, not a Chief. We also already have images of the two variations of Chief from the TNG era. --OuroborosCobra talk 00:29, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- In TNG, O'Brien was a CPO and is seen wearing two pips indicative of a lieutenant.--Babaganoosh 00:31, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- I somehow got it into my head that enlisted officers' ranks and commbadge was silver. --Babaganoosh 00:47, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not to piss on the fire, but weren't the pips... round? --Alan 06:05, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- O'Brien wore two perfectly normal, golden rank pins and a regular golden and silver communicator for most of his appearances on TNG. In "Encounter at Farpoint" and "All Good Things...", he wore one golden pin, in "Lonely Among Us", he wore none. Then, for foure seasons, he wore two golden pins. In Season 6, he began wearing one hollow pin (still golden on the rim) and still wore a regular gold and silver communicator. He was seen with that hollow pin in two TNG episodes: "Realm of Fear" and "Rascals". Then he wore the hollow pin for three years on DS9, with a gold and silver communicator, before getting his chief patch in "Hippocratic Oath", still with a, you guessed it, gold and silver communicator. --Jörg 11:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not to piss on the fire, but weren't the pips... round? --Alan 06:05, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- okay, okay. Point taken. Did anyone notice that Wesley Crusher's commbadge was shades of silver when he wore the gray jumpsuit, though? Have at it, expert graphic arts types.--Babaganoosh 18:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, he's the only person who ever wore a silver on silver communicator. --Jörg 21:55, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
MCPO: Chief Specialist?Edit
Not once, in my eleven years in the US Navy, have I ever heard a Chief referred to as a Chief Specialist. Now, you could have a rating with specialist in it and referred to as such. Say Communication Specialist Chief Petty Officer as an example. I was personally an Aviation Electronics Technician First Class Petty Officer, or just an AT1 or Petty Officer. Petty does not denote any disrespect, it literally means small officer and is a non-commissioned officer rank. 184.108.40.206 06:33, October 6, 2009 (UTC)
- Of course, while Starfleet is modeled on the US Navy, it isn't identical to the US Navy. -- sulfur 10:18, October 6, 2009 (UTC)
- I removed text claiming the terms were interchangeable in the real US Navy. My eight years experience agree with the first poster's eleven. :-) Sulfur is of course correct that Starfleet can be different. --220.127.116.11 09:13, April 14, 2017 (UTC)
For a rank that is entirely derived from a piece of insignia, this has a lot of irrelevant information and speculation. A large chunk of it was removed this morning (by me) and I've put it here:
- This rank was almost the highest enlisted grade in organizations like Starfleet and the US Navy, falling subordinate to any commissioned officer. In comparison to infantry ranking systems, this rank was approximately equivalent to the first sergeant grade.
- When there were individual grades of chief petty officers, SCPO was subordinate to master chief petty officer (MCPO).
- This rank was considered to have the responsibility of a "noncommissioned officer." Senior Chiefs were considered to have superior knowledge in their field and advise mid level officers (LCDR and CDR) on specific matters.
That's just far too much speculating for my tastes, and I'm not entirely convinced that everything that is still on the page does belong. -- sulfur 15:35, November 11, 2010 (UTC)
- The last removed paragraph above accurately describes behavior seen on screen, and is probably a helpful description of the rank as it is portrayed in the case of O'Brien. --18.104.22.168 09:07, April 14, 2017 (UTC)
First items removed:
- As a traditional naval grade, MCPO was the most senior grade of chief petty officer, and is the highest non-commissioned officer grade in organizations like Starfleet and the United States Navy. In comparison to infantry ranking systems, this rate was approximately equivalent to the most senior sergeant grade, such as sergeant-major. Personnel of this grade could be addressed simply as chief (or more properly, "master chief"), and sometimes by their job title, such as "master chief specialist."
- While nominally subordinate to all commissioned officers, master chiefs wielded far more influence and authority than most junior officers and acted as mentors and advisors to senior officers. Master chiefs had decades of practical experience and were an indispensable source of technical skill and leadership on Starfleet vessels.
- When there were individual grades of chief petty officers, senior chief petty officer (SCPO) was subordinate to MCPO.
Some info could probably be cherry picked for background information, but this is much too much explanation for a visually ID'd reference.
Second items removed:
- It is odd that Rand was in a chief uniform – while she was an enlisted chief in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, when she appeared again in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock she was wearing officer insignia before being seen with MCPO insignia in Star Trek IV. Since the character in Star Trek III was simply credited as "woman", it may not necessarily have been Rand, but a different character.
- Similar confusion in Rand holding various officer ranks dates back to the Marvel TOS "Eclipse of Reason" and DC TOS volume 2 "The Dream Walkers" comics, and continues in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country and VOY: "Flashback".
Not so much because "it is odd", but a) because we've apparently determined that STIII Rand is not Rand, and b) this is more relevant to Janice Rand herself. Finally, it should be considered that this and senior chief petty officer be combined into chief petty officer (corresponding to how all the "crewman" classes, as well as the "petty officer" classes are all lumped together. --Alan del Beccio (talk) 14:41, August 31, 2017 (UTC)
SCPO: Senior chief specialist Edit
So regarding this removed justification:
- O'Brien was referred to usually as "chief" or "chief petty officer." He was referred to as chief petty officer in TNG Season 4 and again in DS9 Season 3 and beyond. Presumably the DS9 Season 2 reference in "Shadowplay" to "senior chief specialist", means the term "petty officer" can be used interchangeably with "specialist". In Starfleet "SCPO" might be the person's rank, while "specialist" is their title.
While I agree that O'Brien is the true victim in all of this, there's still this big nasty "presumably"...that is trying to make an equivalency of "known" information on an "unknown" title. So I've included the following references to anything I could find to clear this up (NOTE: I was not sure which Season 3 episode the removed quote was referencing):
- SERGEY (RE: O'Brien): "Always good to meet another Chief Petty Officer. Sergey Rozhenko, formerly of the USS Intrepid." ("Family")
- O'BRIEN: "Nowadays, when I go home, he introduces me as 'my son, Senior Chief Specialist Miles Edward O'Brien'." ("Shadowplay")
- O'BRIEN: "My name is Miles O'Brien. My rank, Chief of Operations, Starfleet. I'm a Federation citizen." ("Tribunal")
- GORGAN'AGAR: "Gold uniform indicates specialty in Security or Engineering. Rank, Chief Petty Officer. You are what Starfleet refers to as a noncom." ("Hippocratic Oath")
I think the bookend references ("Chief Petty Officer") tell the real story. "Chief of Operations" was established in over a dozen other cases as being his title or position, not rank (but we could also attribute that to his being under duress). Maybe there is some truth to the above mentioned mash-up justification "Senior Chief (Petty Officer)" + "Specialist" = "Senior Chief Specialist", but ultimately it remains undefined -or- is a product of 300 years of tweaks to the ranking system, but ultimately three years prior and two year past he was and still was a CPO.