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Talk:Chez Sandríne

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Accent (not in France)Edit

It's highly unlikely that the dot on the "i" on the sign is an acute accent, as this does not exist in French, let alone in the French name Sandrine. The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) at {{{2}}}.

I agree that there are no such characters in french and that it should most likely be a style effect on the sign, nothing more. - Philoust123 12:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Name of this establishmentEdit

This bar was founded in the 18th century, but was it stated that it has the same name over 600 years. I doubt that every girl in the family are named Sandrine just in case they one day own the bar. This could explain why there are no "Chez Sandrine" bar in Marseille in the real life now. - Philoust123 15:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

"The Cloud" just says it's been in her family for 600 years.Esllera 01:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)Esllera

Rename suggestionEdit

The accent on the i in "Sandríne" probably doesn't belong, and should be a regular i because: 1) such accents don't happen in French, as has been argued on this talk page before 2) the accent is apparently based on the sign outside the establishment, but that's a pretty common way for regular i's to look in that kind of font 3) The encyclopedia just says Sandrine 4) I've asked Defiant to check the (admittedly just one) script he has mentioning the bar, and it doesn't have the accent. In addition to this rename, I believe Sandríne should also be renamed. -- Capricorn (talk) 09:57, February 24, 2016 (UTC)

I agree with renaming both. --Defiant (talk) 10:33, February 24, 2016 (UTC)
Oppose; while the arguments are solid, we are left with the visual reference of the sign in the episode, and its admittedly wrong use of the French language notwithstanding (besides who is to say that the French have not adopted a new accent in 300 years time, remember its just a holodeck recreation and its programmers could have overlooked that tiny detail, or had it just plain wrong, as the Art Department apparently had), it has therefore become canon, as I am still under the impression that visual references do trump script references. I also disagree with the "pretty common way for regular i's to look in that kind of font" argument, as an exact duplicate, though mirrored as a proper accent is also featured on the sign...--Sennim (talk) 17:32, February 24, 2016 (UTC)

This is a typical example of a font based on someone's particularly nice handwriting style, and in manual writing it is very common for the dot on the i to turn into a stripe in the writing direction. To further illustrate, here is a font extremely close to the font used on the sign. Note that you can insert your own sample text on that page - experiment and compare (though note that on the sign the capitals were enlarged). -- Capricorn (talk) 19:21, February 24, 2016 (UTC)

Nice find, but I like to point out that while the "í" isn't used in mainstream French it is used in Occitan, a language closely related to French and spoken in the southern part of France, and guess what, among others in the area of Marseille.--Sennim (talk) 19:51, February 24, 2016 (UTC)

That's an intersting factoid, but do you have any evidence that it's an í and not an i besides that it theoretically might be? Because when in doubt, check the script. You're zooming in on a weakness in one argument, but I provided four. -- Capricorn (talk) 20:52, February 24, 2016 (UTC)

And each time you ignore that the on-screen trumps script. It may be that it was intended to be an "i", but that the font made it look like "í". Point being... "í" was used on screen. Even if it's the font that made it looks like that. -- sulfur (talk) 00:24, February 25, 2016 (UTC)

Sorry but that just makes no sense. If it was intended to be an "i" but the font made it look more like an "í", then it's still an "i", it's just an "i" that happens to look a bit weird. You might as well call an l a 1 because there is mote of dust on the screen. -- Capricorn (talk) 01:17, February 25, 2016 (UTC) And again, I'm unsure why people are ignoring that this is not a particularly uncommon way to draw the dot on an i in fonts. -- Capricorn (talk) 01:21, February 25, 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps this will convince you; in modern mainstream French the name of the city is written as "Marseille", in older, pre-WW1 French as "Marseílles", as it is on the sign, and as a quick Google search will show you...Who is to say that the artist at the Art Department did not add a little "couleur locale" out of his own volition, regardless of what the script said/spelled...It has me convinced....--Sennim (talk) 09:15, February 25, 2016 (UTC)

Not particularly, because if that's what the dot on the i looks, then it's gonna look like that in both places, and Marseilles is a common English term for the city. So basically the sign spelling is either very cleverly archaic (google gave me just 45 results for Marseílles, not even all historic), or like all other written French in Star Trek it contains dumb errors. And again, I feel the need to end by mentioning that there is no particular reason to believe that the i on the sign is not a regular i. Dots on regular i's sometimes look like that. It's not rare, especially in script fonts. I fear I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but it seems to me that if you can just accept that typographic fact, then it being an í becomes nothing more then a theory, and one that does not survive Occam's razor. -- Capricorn (talk) 10:36, February 25, 2016 (UTC) Also for what it's worth re: the art department improvising, note that the encyclopedia calls it Chez Sandrine despite being written by the head of the art department. -- Capricorn (talk) 10:50, February 25, 2016 (UTC)

Occam's Razor also states that it is unlikely to have English spelling on a French language sign, especially considering how fiercely protective the French are of their cultural heritage, their language in particular, no matter what region they are native to, – to avoid confusion, this I say with respect – hence the archaic spelling as the tavern was established in the 18th century. But I, also starting to sound like a broken record :), think we have to agree that we disagree, and leave it up to the rest of the community what to do, and abide with a majority decision. (PS, the very first poster on this page is wrong that "Sandríne" does not exist in the real world in French as spelled, it does on a couple of Facebook pages; admittedly it is an uncommon spelling – Occitan descent – , but existing nevertheless)--Sennim (talk) 11:16, February 25, 2016 (UTC)

You're applying Occam's razor to a fictional situation, which is nonsical. Fictional universes don't follow the laws of probability, they follow narratological needs with very little regard for what's most plausible. The only thing it makes sense to apply occam's razor to is how the art department ended up with a sign like that. To be honest I feel you've fallen victim to conspiratorial thinking: there's a number of unrelated reasons why it might potentially be Sandríne, therefore it seems likely that it would be, even though there's nothing but some happy coincidences. -- Capricorn (talk) 21:55, February 25, 2016 (UTC)

I personally believe the accent isn't an accent but an accidental bit of paint, like the artist was nudged. All other instances give the name as featuring a straight "i" (including other in-universe instances), so that's really how this page should be formatted too. --Defiant (talk) 16:42, January 21, 2017 (UTC)

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