Don't change "settlement" back to "colony". It's too big just to be a colony.- B-101 13:23, 1 Oct 2004 (CEST)
- Why? What exactly is the size limit of a colony? We basically use "colony" for everything that isn't a species' homeworld (=was colonized), and while I don't have any problems with the term "settlement" itself, I don't think we should make that distinction. -- Cid Highwind 13:38, 1 Oct 2004 (CEST)
Maybe you are right. Now that I think about it, an army construction yard wouldn't be a good place for several million Aquatics to live. Unless, it is a settlement and the weapon construction facility was just a construction facility, for ships and all kinds of stuff.- B-101 02:01, 24 Oct 2004 (CEST)
for being speculation -Angry Future Romulan 15:20, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
Changes to page Edit
According to "MA:NOT", it is stated, Although there are a great many gaps in our knowledge about the Star Trek universe, Memory Alpha articles are not the place for personal opinions. Don't write an entire article on a speculative subject – if we don't know, then leave it blank. The name of Azati Prime's primary and system are not given in the episodes "Stratagem", "Doctor's Orders", and "Azati Prime". Naming the primary and system are adding speculation to the page. Removed planet class - it is not mentioned in the above episodes - and added a note about planet class from Startrek.com.Lakenheath72 (talk) 23:12, April 4, 2015 (UTC)
In the final draft script of "Stratagem", the red giant itself is clearly referred to as Azati Prime. Not (yet) sure how this planet is described in other script sources. --Defiant (talk) 17:12, February 16, 2016 (UTC)
- That used to be an article, now its an unnamed stars entry (Relavant talk). Also you should probably be aware of its unnamed system, formarly a page called "Azati Prime system" but merged (talk). And there's an entry on unnamed planetoids, which was formerly a page at (you guessed it) "Azati Prime (planetoid)" (talk)
- My point is, Azati Prime has a history of massive naming confusion, even when we just went by the (several) relevant filmed episodes. So please thread carefully. ;) In particular, please be careful to add info that seems to directly contradict anything from "Strategem", "Hatchery", "Azati Prime" etc. For example, in the filmed version of Strategem, Azati prime is clearly described as a planet, but its coordinates are said to match a red giant. So there's that. Sorry for the infodump, I spent a lot of time cleaning these pages up... --- Capricorn (talk) 19:55, February 16, 2016 (UTC)
In the final draft script of the episode "Azati Prime", this planet is consistently referred to as "oceanic world". That same script also clearly refers to the red giant as being Azati Prime. The episodes that detail Enterprise's journey there (such as "Hatchery") don't specify exactly what "Azati Prime" is and the same can be said of their scripts. I intend to re-examine how the name is used in the "Stratagem" script before putting this matter to rest. --Defiant (talk) 15:20, February 28, 2016 (UTC)
- Stratagem (the ep at least :p) pretty explicitly talks about "...a planet he visited recently. Azati Prime". This is long before the red giant intel is developed. I think that establishes pretty clearly that there's a planet with the name. The link with the oceanic world is more of a case of putting two and two together: Enteprise crew think the weapon is at this Azati prime Degra mentioned, go take a look at his coordinates for it, and find a planet with the weapon. -- Capricorn (talk) 16:08, February 28, 2016 (UTC)
Wrong. "Stratagem" clearly shows the coordinates are for the red giant. I've just finished going through the episode with its script again. The only time Azati Prime is mentioned in connection with a planet is when Hoshi Sato is going through the records of Degra's ship. She doesn't have all the details worked out and is trying to piece them together. So, the mention of the planet is in the logs, together with the mention of Azati Prime, but this doesn't mean they're one and the same. The script indicates the real identity of the Azati Prime with the use of a colon, identifying it as the red giant. For Hoshi's dialogue, however, the script separates her reference to the planet and her reference to "Azati Prime" with a full stop. I know that's a minor formatting difference if there wasn't more evidence. However, the episode itself clearly indicates that Azati Prime is the red giant, because when asked for the coordinates of Azati Prime, Degra gives the coordinates of the red giant. As I've said before too, this connection is additionally clearly established in the script of "Azati Prime", and is quite evidently what the writers intended. The "oceanic world" is only near/in the same system as Azati Prime. --Defiant (talk) 17:13, February 28, 2016 (UTC)
It may possible that the writers meant for Hoshi to get a bit mixed up and consequently assume Azati Prime is a planet, much as has happened here. Whether the planet she references actually exists or not, the bottom line is that Azati Prime is clearly identified as the red giant both on screen and in the script. --Defiant (talk) 17:21, February 28, 2016 (UTC)
- First let me say that I think you clearly have enough evidence to split of the Azati Prime star again. But "Stratagem" as aired clearly discusses a planet with that name too, way more often then in that one line by Hoshi. And that's quality on-screen evidence we can't ignore even if from your script of "Azati Prime" it essentially seems like the writers had forgotten by then.
- First you have the fake Thalen claiming to be "on Azati Prime", and Degra asks if his family is still there (he's presumably not deceiving archer here bc when asked for the coordinates, he gives coordinates leading straight to the weapon), About this same place where his family is supposed to be, Degra earlier also says that "the planet was barely habitable".
- Enterprise already knows that the colony is "near a red giant", so they make a list of red giants. When Degra gives the coordinates, T'Pol notes that "the coordinates match the location of one of the red giants", and from that point, they start talking about the coordinates as belonging to the star. (it even kinda makes sense: stars are essentially fixed objects hundreds of thousands of AU's from eachother, but a planet moves, while also remaining a few AU's at most their star.)
- All in all, the consistent characterization of Azati Prime as a planet in that episode is more significant than the fact that the coordinates given for it are said to be match a star Enterprise knows about.
- But again, the distinction between the planet Degra described and the water world is less clear. I can kinda see an argument for split those two up due to the connection not being explicitly made. Dunno. -- Capricorn (talk) 04:19, February 29, 2016 (UTC)
Surely, things can be "on" a star(?) Degra talks about a colony his family is at, but at no time is that specifically linked to Azati Prime, other than to establish the planet's "near" that red giant. --Defiant (talk) 11:34, February 29, 2016 (UTC)
- I think it is clearly linked: Early on, Degra establishes the last known location of his family was on "a colony near a red giant". A bunch of scenes later a scene happens in which the following things occur: Archer asks Degra to describe that colony, and in doing so Degra explicitly describes it as a planet. Then, fake Thalen says he's "on Azati Prime", and Degra asks if his family is "still there". Directly after that conversation, Degra even wonders why the colony isn't destroyed, removing all doubt that they've not somehow switched to talking about some other place. I don't see how that could be any clearer. You have unearthed evidence that Azati Prime is the name of the star, but that's not evidence against it being the name of a planet too. It's hardly unheard of for the important planet in a system and the primary of that system to share a name. -- Capricorn (talk) 12:54, February 29, 2016 (UTC)
I accept that both the "bleak, desolate" planet colonized by the Xindi and the gas giant are named Azati Prime. However, I deny the "oceanic planet" is (necessarily) the same as the colony, as this site would have us believe; it should be changed, so that this speculative link is weeded out. --Defiant (talk) 16:34, February 29, 2016 (UTC)
I've changed my mind again; regarding Azati Prime as the colonized planet only works if you interpret the word "there" in an extremely limited, literal way. When Degra asks fake Thalen if his family is "there", what Degra actually means is to ask Thalen if they're still with Thalen himself. Evidence of this comes when Degra later tells Archer that Azati Prime is "the last place [his] people would have gone to hide from" the Insectoids. Degra's "people" (whether that means his family and/or his species) were already on the colonized planet, so "Thalen"'s message clearly suggested some travel involved. We can conclude that this would have been between the planet and Azati Prime. --Defiant (talk) 23:01, February 29, 2016 (UTC)
Also, please note that Degra sent a letter to his wife, a few months prior to December 2153, about having recently visited Azati Prime; if the planet had been called "Azati Prime", Degra would be writing to his wife about having visited the same planet she lived on! Why not just speak to her in person, during the "visit"?! Moreover, Degra is clearly established as living on the planet but visiting Azati Prime. --Defiant (talk) 23:43, February 29, 2016 (UTC)
- Regarding your first point, when Degra talks about Azati Prime being the last place his people would have gone, he' seems to be refering to Thalen having gone there, because that statement comes directly after him saying that learning that his colleague was on Azati Prime was what made him suspicious. Thalen would indeed have had to have traveled to Azati Prime rather then having been there all along, because Degra last knew him to be on that ship in the Calindra system with himself. Plus, it's not the "there" in "still there" that's important, it's the "still". Degra asking if his family is still there strongly suggests he is believes they were there when he last knew where they were. Which he has earlier established to be the "colony near a red giant" he later describes.
- Regarding the letter: First you have a scene where Hoshi says she has recovered a letter from which she deduces Degra has visited Azati Prime recently. Later there is a scene where Hoshi says she's recovered a letter from a few months ago mentioning his wife. You're conflating the two, but there's no particular proof that it's the same letter (no proof they aren't either, it's just unclear), or even if it is, that the thing he wrote to his wife was that he had visited some other planet called Azati Prime. Here's one example of a letter fragment 100% compatible with statements about both letters, but which breaks your logic: "My dear Naara, I've only left Azati Prime last week, and already I miss you and our children".
- Again, re the Azati Prime=/=Oceanic world, I kinda agree with you. After all there were two Xindi planets major Xindi presence in the Azati Prime system, one might be the colony and the other the construction site. Also, at this point isn't a split suggestion in order for the star? Or are you still researching that? -- Capricorn (talk) 05:50, March 1, 2016 (UTC) -- Capricorn (talk) 05:50, March 1, 2016 (UTC)
- I've been following this discussion, and while I'm not attempting to stop or interrupt any efforts to catelog what was referred to as Azati Prime, I'm wonding if the idea that Azati Prime isn't, for the most part, being used as the proper noun for things like the system, star, or planet even, but rather as the most identifiable location name in the area, has been considered.
- For example, I've found it's easier to tell people I'm from Chicago when I'm outside of Chicagoland, even though I've never lived inside the city limits proper, because Chicago is the most widely known location name, even more so than Illinois. Using a Trek example, when it's said that Earth is protected by a fleet of ships during the Dominion War in DS9, I think it's safe to assume that "Earth" in that case most likely means at least the entire Sol system if not Sector 001 in its entirety. Earth just happens to be the most identifiable/populated/valued location in the area being spoken about.
- That said, and based on what you guys have found, it seems to me that we can say with 100% certainty that there is a colony named Azati Prime, and that colony is most likely on a planet named Azati Prime, but not that the oceanic planet was Azati Prime. At this point, I think it would be more helpful to split off the oceanic planet info to the unnamed planets list, and have this page be only about the colony in-universe, while the background details the naming confusion and links to the unamed pages. Those unamed pages should also, of course, link back here in some maner. - Archduk3 06:53, March 1, 2016 (UTC)
I'm all for the oceanic planet info being split off to one of the unnamed planets pages. However, I still believe only the red giant was called Azati Prime, rather than the colonized planet too. The final draft scripts of both "Stratagem" and "Azati Prime" clearly indicate that only the star was named Azati Prime, so to persist with calling either planet by that name is to defy what the writers intended. Also, isn't it far more likely that a "deuterium facility" would be on a star, rather than a planet? Another point I'm considering is that the majority of the references to Azati Prime in "Stratagem" say "on Azati Prime", which I don't think is the same as saying you're "from" somewhere. For example, if someone said (even to an extraterrestrial) "Chicago is on Earth," would you then expect to find Chicago possibly on the moon?! On the other hand, I would suggest that, when Degra is asking if his "people" are "still there", that clearly means whether his family is in the same star system as they were previously; I take your point, Capricorn, about Degra's family not having been with Thalen, last Degra knew. My bad. --Defiant (talk) 08:59, March 1, 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe we just disagree on this on some deep level, but as for writer's intent, I feel that as a general principle, if an episode presents the situation differently than its script, then it's too bad for the writers but the episode should be followed - it is the canon version of the story after all.
- With that in mind the discussion can continue on two paths: either you agree with that principle, and we continue on the path we were on: you last gave some arguments which I feel like I refuted, so it is now up to you to argue why that's not the case. The other option is that you (and/or others) feel that, to massacre a legal aphorism, the spirit of the writer should trump the letter of the transcript. In that case we may have some really heavy stuff to figure out as a community.
- Let me end on a lighter note though, by noting something of my own about the deuterium facility. Given its wider context in the story, I think it would be fair to say that it's more likely then not that Degra was lying at that point. It's ultimately unprovable, so like your observation about Deuterium and stars it shouldn't count as evidence, but it's still an insight worth keeping in mind. -- Capricorn (talk) 12:56, March 1, 2016 (UTC)
- Probably by sinking significantly less hours in the issue then we did :D -- Capricorn (talk) 14:38, March 4, 2016 (UTC)
Split suggestion Edit
I'd like to propose splitting the info about the oceanic planet from the episode "Azati Prime" to a new section of the Unnamed Alpha and Beta Quadrant planets page. --Defiant (talk) 12:56, March 4, 2016 (UTC)