This is a page to discuss the suggestion to delete "Shakespeare and Star Trek".

  • If you are suggesting a page for deletion, add your initial rationale to the section "Deletion rationale".
  • If you want to discuss this suggestion, add comments to the section "Discussion".
  • If a consensus has been reached, an administrator will explain the final decision in the section "Admin resolution".

In all cases, please make sure to read and understand the deletion policy before editing this page.

Deletion rationale Edit

As the result of the very lengthy discussion regarding "essay type article" which was started here and continued here, I move that this article is not appropriate material for Memory Alpha. It has little canon basis and appears to be a list of times that Shakespeare has been mentioned in Star Trek as well as a personal view on how the concept of Shakespeare has affected the Star Trek franchise. An extremely similar article (Military references in Star Trek) was debated and examined from all sides and it was at last determined that these types of articles should be removed from this site and, if possible, hosted on a non-MA location. The result of the military reference article was having it moved here. I feel that similar measures should be taken with this article. If we allow it to stay then we are clearly setting a double standard and, in the famous words of Picard: "Breaking our own rules when they become inconvenient" (TNG: "The Measure Of A Man ") -FC 22:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion Edit

  • I support the deletion of the essays, but I think there's room for a page on this subject which is along the lines fo the European classical music page. TribbleFurSuit 22:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I also support removing the essays. However, I do think there is a place for the list of Shakespeare references in Trek, perhaps on the William Shakespeare page.--31dot 02:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Incorporate all the factual/citeable information into William Shakespeare, then delete.– Cleanse 02:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree with all here. Delete forth with. Alas, Shakespeare and Star Trek, we knew him well. ---- Willie LLAP 03:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Much of the info that isn't redundant fits as a background/apocryphal section to William Shakespeare, and as this is sort of a "remote background section" as it is, I say just merge it. --Pseudohuman 03:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Given that the writers of Star Trek clearly intended the references and allusions to Shakespeare, throughout all the series, to add extra depth and meaning to their stories, it seems important that memory alpha have this page as a resource to help fans who wish to explore the derivation of Star Trek's ideas. Princephilip 11:50, 29 May 2008
That, while worthwhile, is not the purpose of MA. This is an encyclopedia, not a place to explore or debate ideas or concepts of Star Trek.--31dot 00:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep this page in some form! As an average user who is not involved with the politics or editing of Memory Alpha normally, I found this a fascinating read! What's more, I believe I can see myself working on it and making it conform to the normal standards of articles on the project. This is exactly the kind of thing you need more of, not less! It interests the reader beyond "this is what happened in that episode" and encourages the user to think! Maybe this is beyond the scope of what some feel the project should encompass, and I'm probably ranting, but -- sans the possible POV issues - this genuinely caught my eye. Scholasticitous 12:52, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
    • The problem with people wanting it to stay because "they like it" or "its fascinating" or reasons like that is that that will set a bad precedent as this is an "essay article" drawing conclusions and opinions about Star Trek which haven't been mentioned or discussed in any episode. While this is a very good article, it would be the same as creating an article like "Roles of women in Star Trek" or "Racial Epitomes in Star Trek". Subjective type articles like that aren't what MA is about and this has been determined througth countless discussions and debates by many users (see the two examples I gave above). We can't make a single exception here. -FC 15:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
  • So, how about a consensus that a merge is the best thing to do here? --Pseudohuman 13:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
    • I agree that merging just the list of times that Shakespeare has appeared in Star Trek (or making that its own article) would work or simply moving such a list to an external website would work too. -FC 15:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
  • A merge proposal: I propose we merge the first two sentences of the intro, and the "References in Star Trek"-list as the background of William Shakespeare. Apocryphic references and the Klingon part would also be incorporated as the apocrypha section. The "Effects on the franchise"-essay part of the page already exists as an external page essay so we delete it from MA and include it as an external site link. People who like it can go read it there. The "Houston, Julia"-link doesn't link to the correct page, also the works cited would naturally be removed. --Pseudohuman 17:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Although interesting, I would have to support deletion of this article. It is basically an essay, an interesting one, but nonetheless an essay and should not be included in MA. If possibly, I think we should try to find some place for it though, as it would be a shame to lose it completely. TrekFan 19:14, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
    • We don't need to find a place for the essay portion of this page, because it already has one. It was not written for MA, it was copied from an existing page into MA. [1] --Pseudohuman 19:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Oh, well in that case, delete. If it was simply copied from somewhere else, there is no point having it on MA aswell , especially when it doesn't follow MA guidelines. TrekFan 20:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
    • That much is clear, the question however is regarding the list of "Shakespeare references in Star Trek" that does follow MA guidelines. I would like to hear comments regarding it's fate. I proposed a merge (see above), but it could also remain as this separate page. --Pseudohuman 20:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete the essay, merge the "References in Star Trek" & "Shakespeare in Klingon" sections to William Shakespeare, along with the external link to the original essay. – Topher 05:13, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Admin resolution Edit

  • Merged first two sentences of "essay" and the references by series section into the background section of William Shakespeare, and weeded out some of the redundant and unsupported references and commentary. The Shakespeare in Klingon section was moved to The Klingon Hamlet (which lacked said information anyway) and was listed as a link in the "related link" section (as the two pages were not connected to one another, otherwise.) The former talk page from this article is now archived at talk:William Shakespeare/archive along with the peer review. A note on this discussion can be found on talk:William Shakespeare. --Alan 17:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)