As new TNG-R images are coming out, it appears that a number of the Okudagrams have been changed from the original TNG releases. As per what was done with TOS and the discussions in this forum about screenshots, I was under the strong impression that new things added and things changed in the TNG-R did not replace TNG, but rather enhanced, and that we'd indicate that there were alternate versions rather than making the older stuff "non-canon" and "unreferenced".
These things are canon and are referenced in the non-TNG-R versions, and I do not believe that changing the status of these items is appropriate. Thoughts? -- sulfur (talk) 13:38, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
- My initial thought is that you are correct, but I'm wondering if there are specific examples which prompted your comment here. 31dot (talk) 14:03, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
Examples include: David Glink, the changes made to Peter Lauritson (Captain) and SS Tomobiki, and also ADR looping. I'm sure that there are more, but these are the four that jumped out at me this morning. -- sulfur (talk) 14:11, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
- The matte painting of File:Starbase 515, remastered.jpg was heavily modified from the original version (seen at File:Angel I-Starbase 515-Klaestron IV-Banea surface.jpg) for the remastered "Samaritan Snare", as well. I set it up as a separate file due to the changes. - Aatrek 14:30, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with sulfur, both versions can still exist and should be mentioned in articles or get their own pages. More examples: the names of some of the comedians in "The Outrageous Okona" were changed for the remastering. The shuttle in "Samaritan Snare" also is the Einstein now. --Jörg (talk) 18:43, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
- I put up a new image of the Einstein parked in the shuttlebay. - Aatrek 22:35, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
- I made a big deal out of this retcon stuff some time ago, (Forum:Retcons) arguing that both the original version and the new version are both just as canon, but the consensus of everybody else at that time was that new remastered versions always overwrite previous original versions of everything when they contradict because the remastered versions are more recent additions to canon. But are you saying now that we should have two contradicting facts just stated in the article in-universe segment. For example: "The captain of the Tomobiki in 2119 was Peter Lauritson. (TNG: "Up The Long Ladder") The captain of the Tomobiki in 2119 was Dave Glick. (TNG: "Up The Long Ladder" remastered)" for example? Should this policy change then be applied to TOS-R and directors cut The Motion Picture as well? --Pseudohuman (talk) 20:01, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
- Particularly interesting thing about TMP is that technically speaking the most recent version of it and the only one available new (as well as being the only one in HD) is in fact the theatrical version. StalwartUK (talk) 22:01, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
- I made a big deal out of this retcon stuff some time ago, (Forum:Retcons) arguing that both the original version and the new version are both just as canon, but the consensus of everybody else at that time was that new remastered versions always overwrite previous original versions of everything when they contradict because the remastered versions are more recent additions to canon. But are you saying now that we should have two contradicting facts just stated in the article in-universe segment. For example: "The captain of the Tomobiki in 2119 was Peter Lauritson. (TNG: "Up The Long Ladder") The captain of the Tomobiki in 2119 was Dave Glick. (TNG: "Up The Long Ladder" remastered)" for example? Should this policy change then be applied to TOS-R and directors cut The Motion Picture as well? --Pseudohuman (talk) 20:01, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
- I think the answer to this question needs to depend on whether the two bits of information really are contradicting each other or not. If they aren't, for example because an LCARS screen has been exchanged for another with different information (perhaps on a completely different topic), then we can use both pieces of information, pretending that both LCARS screens have been shown one after another. Similarly, in the case of the modified matte painting, we can just continue to use both, implicitly pretending that they actually show different quarters of the city and not the same with non-matching buildings. Of course, we might as well just use the better image in that case, seeing that we don't have screenshots for each and every frame of every effect shot, anyway.
- So again, just like in the four year old discussion Pseudohuman mentioned, it's only the contradicting in-universe information that is problematic. If information in one shot contradicts information in another, then both bits of information can not be "true" at the same time, and we'll have to deal with that one way or another. Stepping back a bit and looking at the big picture, we have to admit that, in many cases, detail information derived from "old-TNG" LCARS screens never was meant to be visible. If such information gets replaced by more sensible information (like, for example, someones ancestor no longer being "Miss Piggy" but someone with a less strange name), I believe we should use the information that was meant to be visible, and move the other information to a background note. -- Cid Highwind (talk) 12:37, December 9, 2012 (UTC)