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After thinking for awhile about the Borg Paradox (as I here unofficially dub it), I've come to realize that there's a good deal of time paradoxes in Star Trek history, and that that one must well simply be a norm of sorts. Given that, I'm wondering if someone should draw up a list of all verifiably "impossible" scenarios that the time travel episodes have created (such as Sisko deciding to take Bell's place amongst the Sanctuary riots, when Bell's death likely should've meant that Sisko never even knew about him to begin with, no?), and list them in the chronological order of known (or perhaps unknown, al la Borg) such occurrances, or something similar. --ChrisK 08:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- Wouldn't that just be a "nitpick list" in disguise? How exactly do we decide if a scenario making use of science fiction technology (like time travel in whatever form) is "verifiably impossible"? -- Cid Highwind 09:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The how is simple: mathematics remains, regardless of technology. The technology allows them to DO it...it EXISTING is a matter of the math. For instance, if you yourself are the cause of your birth (i.e., your origin-point), who then is responsible for making you so that you can then in turn be responsible for making you? Janeway destroyed Annorax's time-weapon from history, and kept him from having a time-weapon for her to destroy in the first place. I am not putting down Star Trek for having these paradoxes...the stories are always fascinating. I am seeking people involved to someday come here and realize that the matters they created can then be explored deeper, or given nod to (Nog, for instance, once asked Quark, in DS9: "Little Green Men", if Bell looked like Sisko, self-referencing their own subplots). A known, 'verifiable paradox' list would be more than nitpicking; it would be cool, since it can't be known whether those actually exist, no? --ChrisK 10:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps I misunderstood you. Do you want a list of all episodes that contain comparable/similar "time travel paradoxes" - or do you want a list of occurences that seem "impossible" according to some "out-of-universe" standard? -- Cid Highwind 16:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- Considering the very science of what temporal paradox's, and the effects of time travel are, is still being debated and written, this may not be a simple request. For example, I know of theories which state that it would be impossiblefor you to go back int time and try to change anything.You could go back, but any impacts you made would have already happened to yourself. Let's say, under this theory, that you tried to kill your grandfather to prevent your own birth. Under the theory, something would have to happen to stop you, like your gun jamming. You can't change what already happened,but your presence there is also something that already happened, and therefore not a disruption to the timeline, or a paradox. Then there are the thoeries that state that you can make a change, and that when you do you are creating another quantum reality. My point it, it is not simple mathematics when the very scienceyou are discussing is still in flux. No one really know yet how trying to effect the timeline works. --OuroborosCobra talk 17:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
You are referring to the "grandfather paradox". What I am implying is a unified list of known occurrances of such or similar scenarios. I can VERIFY (again using that word) that if the Borg vessel encountered by Enterprise at J-25 was coming due to the signal in Regeneration, then the Borg never met the Federation at all, because we can chart, moment by moment, the entire loop...the situation, incidentally, is describable as a causality loop, also referenced in the MA database. It would be, basically, a List of Anomolous Temporal Occurances that remain inexplicable by ANY rational standard, even 24th century thinking, because their full loop (or whatever the scenario) can be charted, 'in-story'. -- ChrisK 11:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think that is the wrong way of looking at this situation. Fact is: In-universe, the Borg did meet the Federation. One way of explaining all these events is some sort of predestination paradox situation (which, in turn, might be "explained away" using the Many-worlds interpretation that OC already hinted at). Another way would be to claim that these events are, in fact, unrelated...
- Let me ask again: Do you want this to be a list of all events that "might" be predestination paradoxes, or do you want it to be a list of events that are somehow "wrong" from a storytelling standpoint? If it is the latter, I don't think we need such a list, if only because we don't know what might be "wrong" or "right"... -- Cid Highwind 12:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- If the Regeneration signal brought the Borg cube toward Earth as Regeneration seemed to imply, then the Borg did indeed meet the Federation due to their having met them already. However, the solution I've hit upon is more simple: I blame A Q Who Did It. Solves everything. As for the list, I would have one of all the anomolous temporal phenomena that the characters in the story do not realize exists, at least by the end (al la "Year of Hell"), and the nature of the anomolies in each case. I would expect such a list to stand, due to the writers historically almost never seeming to attempt to write themselves back OUT of predestination paradoxes that develop. -- ChrisK 13:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)